Shirley Nordrum: Part 1
Relatively Speaking
Shirley Nordrum is from the Red Lake Nation. We introduce Shirley and her love for our animal relatives and much more.
Leah Lemm:
Boozhoo. I'm Leah Lemm, citizen of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe.
Daniel Lemm:
Hau Mitakuyapi. I'm Daniel Lemm, citizen of Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate.
Leah Lemm:
And this is Wisdom Continuum. We are bringing you conversations from awesome native folks to celebrate native wisdom for a healthier, thoughtful, more just future.
Daniel Lemm:
And it's our first episode.
Leah Lemm:
It is. Yay. We're kicking off in November during this beautiful time of year in Northern Minnesota. Will it snow? Won't it? I don't know.
Daniel Lemm:
Oh, it's going to snow. There's no doubt about that. The-
Leah Lemm:
Well, now you said it. Now it won't.
Daniel Lemm:
It's got to snow. I got to get out there and use my skis. It's also Native American Heritage Month.
Leah Lemm:
That's true. Though it's always that month every month, right?
Daniel Lemm:
That's right.
Leah Lemm:
Especially while creating Wisdom Continuum.
Daniel Lemm:
Yes.
Leah Lemm:
So let's talk a little bit about what Wisdom Continuum is really quickly. I know we had that fancy trailer, but Wisdom Continuum is a place where we really dive into deeper conversations about an indigenous or native approach to life and how or what are those great ways that we can incorporate into our lives moving forward?
Daniel Lemm:
First up, we have Shirley Nordrum, she's a really great person to talk to and lays a great foundation for the rest of our conversations.
Leah Lemm:
She sure does. Shirley Nordrum is from the Red Lake Nation. She lives up here in Northern Minnesota, and we talk about a lot of things. And we hear specifically about this Anishinaabe worldview and our place in the world. And we also talk about dogs. And then by the end of this episode today, don't worry because guess what? We will continue our conversation with Shirley Nordstrom next time as well.
Leah Lemm:
So we'll get to dive even deeper into what a healthy ecosystem looks like and more. Okay. So here's the first part of our conversation. Shirley starts by introducing herself. You'll hear that she is joined by her dog in the background.
Shirley Nordrum:
[Ojibwe introduction 00:02:28]. So, that is a traditional Ojibwe greeting there. When we start talking that way, our ancestors hear us and they come to be with us and hear what we're saying. And I think it helps us be strong in whatever we're saying. I think it helps truth shine through in what we say. And so, that's how we start everything out. And what I said there was my Ojibwe name is [Ojibwemowin 00:03:14] Thunderbird Woman.
Shirley Nordrum:
Shirley Nordrum is my colonized name and I'm of the Marten Clan. And I'm from the Red Lake Nation. But I live down here on the Leech Lake Reservation. So, that's what I said to you.
Leah Lemm:
Thank you, Shirley. You mentioned your colonized name. I think that starts us off right on the correct foot here. What does it make you think of Shirley to embrace a native worldview or Anishinaabe worldview over a colonized one? What does that bring up for you?
Shirley Nordrum:
The way I look at the world around me in the Anishinaabe worldview is that almost nearly everything is animate, that means that they all have a spirit. And in having that spirit, we are obligated to have relationship with that spirit to honor each other's spirit. And so in our story of creation, we're told about how everything came to be. It's the sun, the moon, the stars, all those beings came first. The fire, the rock, all those elemental beings were our first of our relatives.
Shirley Nordrum:
And then next came our plant relatives. And then next came our animal relatives. Whether they be four-legged, two-legged, winged, fined, crawlers, whoever they are, they were the next. And we as Anishinaabe people, we were the last. We were the youngest and should have that respect and relationship with all those other ones, because all those other ones can exist without us, independent of us.
Shirley Nordrum:
But all those other ones we are told made a commitment to provide and to help us as Anishinaabe people survive and live a good life. [Ojibwemowin 00:05:17], a good life. And so, what colonization does is commodify. And when they brought that here, they didn't look at the beauty and the bounty of the land. They actually had a view of scarcity, like, "Oh my gosh, I have to get all this first and all the value of this first, because there's not enough. And I need this for me. It's all about me, me, me, and what can I get and how can I benefit from that?" Rather than taking the time to develop a relationship with the land and an understanding of the land and the people on the land. Did I answer your question?
Leah Lemm:
Yeah, absolutely. And that just brings up, we hear your dogs in the background.
Shirley Nordrum:
I'm sorry about that. Sometimes they-
Leah Lemm:
No, no, no. And Shirley, I just want to say, they are our relatives, they have something to say.
Shirley Nordrum:
Absolutely.
Leah Lemm:
They're letting you know something and they're being protective, right?
Shirley Nordrum:
Yep.
Leah Lemm:
I'm that way with my dog too. She's right behind me just out of view. Her nails on our floors gets in my recordings all the time. And I feel like their presence makes it even better. They're almost a part of the conversation in a way.
Shirley Nordrum:
They are.
Leah Lemm:
Instead of having like a sterile environment where it's just me talking, you can't say nothing, you know?
Shirley Nordrum:
Right. Right. The relationship with the dog is one that a lot of people have forgotten. Even a lot of my Ojibwe friends have forgotten that. And the dog is in our creation story. The colonized view is that dogs came from wolves or wild dogs. And in our creation story, that is not true. The dog is absolutely separately in the creation story. And when all those relatives said what they would give us, the gifts that they would give us to help us provide and live a good life, short story, I'll try to make a longer story short.
Shirley Nordrum:
And that dog felt bad because he felt like he didn't have anything to offer us. When he was reminded that when he is with us, that we feel safe, he makes us laugh, and he walks with us as a companion. And that was then his promise is that he would always be with us to provide us with that happiness and that companionship and that protection.
Shirley Nordrum:
And so to me, dogs are ... they're essential in my life. I train them. I just enjoy them. I compete. We have a small family business of training dogs and help other people do that. I'm part of an organization called the [Ojibwemowin 00:08:27] by the Red Lake Nation, a friend started that group. And I joined her and we help people provide good wellness and care for their pets. That's a huge part of my life.
Leah Lemm:
That's so nice. Yeah. We're thinking about getting another dog.
Shirley Nordrum:
Go for it. Adopt
Leah Lemm:
Yeah. We saw another dog come across where we adopted our other dog Koda from, and were kind of already in love without having met him. So I don't know.
Daniel Lemm:
And Koda is a Dakota word for friend. So interesting that Shunka, our dog is named friend.
Shirley Nordrum:
There you go. My sister brought up a point yesterday that's kind of to what you're talking about and about colonization and the ideas and concepts of how we live. She saw someone hit a dog on the road and she was at a distance and she saw the person get out and check their car for damage before they went to check the dog.
Shirley Nordrum:
And that really bothered her about where we are headed or where we have gone as a society that you would be more concerned about the value of your vehicle than you were about the value of the life that was, I guess, maybe living in the middle of the road. I do believe the dog died. So just the way that we think about things is ever present in the way we live.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And can we talk a little bit about what happens to us too? How are we affected? It's not nice. It just seems like ... Okay, let me start over. How are we affected then when we have this mindset that the dog, for example, in the road is an it, or is something else or is just like not related, versus understanding that they're brother or sister or something along the lines of an actual relative that is now lost. What happens to us when that's our approach?
Shirley Nordrum:
Well, language plays a big part in that, I think. I think that the English language, it's based on nouns of just what something is or who something is rather than the action of what is happening between animate beings or even between animate and inanimate beings. Actions is really important. I think actions are more important than nouns, which are just simply words. Actions are better, or actions are more important than words. You hear that all the time.
Shirley Nordrum:
And so, I think the way that we speak and it might be in our language, a way that lessons reduces interaction and action. And I'm not sure that I'm able to make that clear, but love and hate and emotion are really all kind of like actions that are inside us. They're bringing about a actual physical change in our being as we experience them.
Shirley Nordrum:
And so, what about the guy that was getting out to check his car rather than caring about the life that was about to leave us in the middle of the road? What was going on in his ... He was probably actually annoyed, I'm guessing because like, "Oh, my car's damaged. Now I got to call the insurance company and I got ..." It created a bunch of stress and a bunch of I'm guessing probably unpleasant feelings within him. Okay.
Shirley Nordrum:
Whereas if he had a care for his relative that he just, I'm sure by accident, took his life, the feelings that he would've felt would've been empathy and love and a softening feeling rather than the hardened feeling of frustration or anger about what happen. So I think that all of those feelings that are happening and creating those emotional chemical changes within us are really important.
Shirley Nordrum:
And I think that there's so much anger, there's so much frustration with each other. Like a lot of people can't even have a dialogue about something where they disagree anymore without it just keep you out of hand and going over the top. And that's all based on how our reactions in our inner being is. So I think it's very unhealthy. I'm trying to get to your answer. I think there's a lot of practices out there that could help us rejuvenate ourselves to a softer place, even just breathing can do that.
Leah Lemm:
Breathing's amazing.
Shirley Nordrum:
It's pretty simple. But we forget about it.
Leah Lemm:
I know.
Shirley Nordrum:
We just kind of let the parasympathetic system do it for us rather than being conscious of the breath that we're taking and grateful of the breath that we're taking.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah. And those things, like those negative feelings, those frustrated feelings as opposed to empathy and love and care, I guess, each of those feelings gets perpetuated and reinforced. So, if I'm mad, then I yell at my kid or something and then he's mad and then he takes it out on, I don't know what, Dan or something. These are perpetuated. And so, if we start with those reactions in that manner, then that's a whole community that's being affected. But [crosstalk 00:15:53] we can choose to be another way.
Shirley Nordrum:
We can. What you put out into the universe is what you will get back. And I think that's a common knowledge thing across a large spectrum of cultures.
Daniel Lemm:
I think Shirley gives us some great things to think about there. I'm struck by what she said, which is what we put out into the universe is what we will get back.
Leah Lemm:
And I think what Shirley's saying is more of how do you walk through the world and respond to what comes up? Every emotion is valid, but how you walk through the world will inform how you react to something. So if you walk through the world with this like projecting love, projecting care towards your community, how you react to somebody making a mistake, giving you your wrong coffee order or something like that is going to be different than if you walk through the world thinking everybody's there to serve you, or you're the center of the universe.
Leah Lemm:
If you get the wrong order, you're going to be like, "Don't worry about it. Just if you want to fix it or maybe I'll try something new today or something like that," there's that versus if everybody's there to serve you, then you might be mad and acts a bit more hateful, and then maybe your kid's watching you and they are learning that. So, that is what I think Shirley's getting at.
Daniel Lemm:
For sure. And it's that true, authentic self that we are in the process is how it also comes back to us. Because we don't want to be walking around faking and being fake just so that good will come back to us. We got to make sure that we're being true to ourselves. And I agree. That's part of what Shirley is talking about as well and being ourselves and how we relate to our dogs, how we relate to our relatives, how we communicate through language, that is all part of what we put out into the universe.
Leah Lemm:
Great. So next time we are going to get even more into what does a healthy ecosystem look like and what are those ways in which society at large has made mistakes in trying to control nature? So I look forward to talking more with Shirley then. I also want to take a moment to share out ways in which you can get in touch with us, Leah and Daniel here.
Leah Lemm:
We have an email, wisdomcontinuum@gmail.com. If you have any suggestions for who we should talk to or anything you'd like to share, these are next level conversations with particularly our world views. And we're trying to incorporate as many indigenous world views around North America as possible. These conversations over time will hopefully incorporate as many voices as possible. And we're also on social media, on Instagram, and Twitter at Wisdom Continuum.
Daniel Lemm:
I want to say I appreciate at everyone joining us for this first episode of Wisdom Continuum.
Leah Lemm:
And it's more than just us working on it too. We have a growing advisory committee of community members, and we want to give a big shout out to our consulting producer, Multitude, and we also have production help by Manda Lillie. I'm Leah.
Daniel Lemm:
And I'm Daniel, and this is Wisdom Continuum.