Ramona Marozas
Direction of Journalism
We chat about journalism as a system and how Native voices can change it for the better. What’s a better possible environment to create?
Ramona Marozas (Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa) is WDSE/WRPT's Senior Producer. Ramona lends her journalistic expertise and experience to Native Report, a nationally syndicated show that celebrates Native American culture and heritage.
Check out Native Report.
We also talk about the Native American Journalist Association.
TRANSCRIPT
Leah:
Boozhoo, I'm Leah Lemm, citizen of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe.
Daniel:
Hau Mitakuyapi, I'm Daniel Lemm, citizen of Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate.
Leah:
And this is Wisdom Continuum.
Daniel:
We are bringing you conversations from awesome Native folks to celebrate Native wisdom for a healthier, thoughtful, more just future.
Leah:
And with today's guest, we will chat about journalism as a system and how Native voices can change it for the better. We'll look at a bunch of different questions, but some of them being, what's a better possible environment to create in journalism and can Native or Anishinaabe values co-exit in the space? Ramona Marozas is a proud tribal member of the Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. Ramona is over at WDSE at WRPT and she's a Senior Producer for the Native Report show, and that's out of Duluth. Native Report illuminates the best of Indian country in their storytelling, and they promote understanding between Native and non-Native cultures. So that's pretty cool, and I know I really respect Ramona's work and she's one voice of many voices, who will help us dive into how systems can possibly be changed for the better, or perhaps a new system entirely.
Daniel:
I love the Native Report. It's one of those shows that has been on before I think before podcasts were a thing.
Leah:
Oh yeah.
Daniel:
So always bringing relevant stories from our communities and through the Native Report, I feel like I'm somewhat keeping up on what's going on in Indian country.
Leah:
Yes, absolutely. So super excited to have Ramona Marozas on with us. And here she is actually. Hold on, I'll let her in.
Ramona:
Hello?
Leah:
Hey.
Daniel:
Hey Ramona.
Leah:
Boozhoo, Ramona. How's it going?
Ramona:
Boozhoo. Hi guys. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. It's so cool you guys are doing this podcast together.
Leah:
I think so, too. It's part passion project, part experiment, part relationship test.
Ramona:
That's so fast.
Daniel:
So far so good. I'm learning a lot from Leah about how to do a podcast, how to interview people, or just how to have conversations with amazing people in the work that they're doing in Indian country. So this has been a wonderful experience for me at least and happy to talk with you today, Ramona.
Ramona:
Me too.
Leah:
So really hard hitting question first, Ramona, are you playing Wordle at all?
Ramona:
No, I'm not.
Leah:
Okay. Okay. I'm just wondering because today's puzzle was pretty good and Dan doesn't play it at all. So I was hoping somebody else would, but maybe I'll have to go to social media for that.
Ramona:
I haven't heard of Wordle.
Leah:
Oh really?
Ramona:
No.
Leah:
Oh my goodness. It's all over the social media platforms. It's just like a word guessing game.
Ramona:
Oh, I would like that.
Leah:
[crosstalk 00:03:26] word puzzle, it's off you guess five letter words and you're trying to figure out the word that they have. Anyway, I'll let Daniel take it away.
Daniel:
All right. Welcome Ramona. Will you please introduce yourself?
Ramona:
Hi everybody, my name is Ramona Marozas, and I grew up in Andover, Minnesota. I'm a proud tribal member of the Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. I've been involved in journalism since my high school years, spent the last eight years in Duluth. First worked in a mainstream newsroom, KBJR 6, and now I am a proud member of the PBS family, Senior Producer of Native Report, which is a show based out of our Duluth station that illuminates the positives and challenges of those of Indian country.
Leah:
It's an amazing work. It's so great to see. And the quality is just top notch, storytelling's top notch. So it's really exciting to have that as a part of our community journalism or our communities journalism. I look forward to talking to you today about journalism as a system, as having potential to change because historically it has not been very inclusive of Native voices. And I want to look at it as being hopefully more inclusive as time goes on, but also how can we take ownership and do journalism that's foundationally Native as well?
Ramona:
Well, thank you. Thank you for your kind words about our show. And also I couldn't agree more that there has been so much distrust between Native communities and media. And that constant parachuting in when tragedy strikes on a reservation has been the all too common storyline when it comes to journalists wanting to cover Indian country. And I feel like now there is this big wave of this big push to share a lot of the positive stories of Indian country. And there's a lot of people that are reaching out to media, wanting to share those positive stories. So I feel as if some of that distrust and some of that stereotypical journalism action there for covering Native stories is really improving, it feels.
Leah:
Yeah. And any improvement is a lot of improvements, I think. So you're in journalism, I'm sort of in journalism in a way I do some reporting, but also mostly radio hosting and podcast hosting. But I've noticed because I did use to work in public radio, mainstream radio. And there's definitely been a shift, there's been a move to include Native voices more and more. And I find myself in spaces talking about how to cover Indian country in non-Native spaces. So non-Native places wanting to cover Native topics more and more and wanting to know how. So what do you see as a state of journalism right now, along those lines?
Ramona:
I do think that there are a lot of cultural barriers for many reporters and journalists covering a Native topic. And during my time at a mainstream newsroom for TV broadcasts, there were a lot of times where the non-Native journalists would come to me as the only Native journalist in the newsroom. And they would ask me for my advice in approaching an interviewee or a source or a particular story topic. And I definitely really loved that because I really loved to share my input with different journalists and I couldn't be happier to do that. I also would pitch a lot of story ideas from Indian country, so it helped to have a Native journalist in the newsroom because I felt like I really went to bat for a lot of those stories to be covered. And so that was really extremely helpful. I have noticed there's a desire to hear more Native perspectives, and I do feel like people were reaching out and wanting to learn more about covering those topics.
Ramona:
So I would give them a lot of advice, but to go back to your question about the state of journalism right now, and what do I feel, it's currently I do think that there is a strong desire to defend journalism right now for many journalists across the country, with the current mistrust in media, I feel journalists are in a state of defense at the moment, defending the importance of media. And I'm really glad that I'm with PBS, because I do see PBS as a very trusted institution. And so I wonder how those of Indian country feel about different media organizations. And now that I'm with Native Report, we're Native produced, I feel like there probably is a little bit more comfortability in sharing stories with a Native led media organization that's dedicated to telling Native stories.
Leah:
Yeah. Do you think your advice was fully listened to when you'd give advice?
Ramona:
I believe that every journalist that's covering a Native community in their area, especially if they're unfamiliar with that Native community, there should be some time put towards researching the historical background of that tribal nation, and the understanding that all tribal nations are completely different from one another. So I think that my advice was taken into account, but there was also probably this root lack of education that a lot of people in our country have because of the lack of American Indian history being taught in the school systems. And I just really love to stress that there're hundreds and hundreds of different federally recognized tribes across the country. There's plenty of unfederally recognized tribes, there's state recognized tribal nations and each one of them are all unique and different. And so I think that's really important for journalists to understand that their particular experience with one Native community may not be the same as this next Native community that they may be covering.
Leah:
Right. Like American Indian history, first lesson, all different or many unique tribes, not one history.
Daniel:
There's a common saying that I've heard, which is if you've been to one community, you've been to one community.
Leah:
Yep.
Ramona:
That's so true. When I spent time with the Native American Journalists Association, they do a lot of trainings for newsrooms across the country, so that they can give some lessons to non-Native journalists and they offer those trainings across the country, which is extremely valuable. And really, I would encourage all the news stations across the country to reach out to the Native American Journalists Association and have them give you a training. And something that I don't want to forget to mention is while I was on the NAJA board, they were working on the Red Press Initiative. So we talk about freedom of the press in United States, but what about for the sovereign tribal nations? And they we're doing this initiative about Indigenous people across North America, depending on tribal and Indigenous owned media outlets, free central news and information about their communities. And because many Indigenous communities reside in places without an independent local newspaper, these outlets may be the only source of information about tribal affairs.
Ramona:
And so they NAJA was wanting to compound this and look into the mainstream media coverage often lacking the context and perspective necessary to tell Indigenous stories with clarity and authenticity. And one of the final findings of a study that they put out in, I believe it was 2018, was nearly a quarter of tribal media producers responded that government records and tribal budgetary information, the source of truthful reporting are probably not accessible to them. So they were looking at the Red Press Initiative, they were wanting to evaluate the freedom of the press within Indian country as well. And so that's also a whole another aspect of storytelling in Indian country and reaching out to tribal councils and unearthing these documents, when a lot of tribal council meetings might be closed to the tribal councils and just those members of that particular tribe.
Ramona:
So there's a lot of information as well too, that maybe, and then somebody in mainstream media might just not have access to that at all. And I think a lot of times the common repetitive statement is, well, they don't need to tell us this information. And there might be that constant struggle of tribal members of a community hounding a media organization of like, "Why aren't you telling this story? Why aren't you telling this story?" But then that media organization as well too, is unable to confirm the details to be able to go forth with the particular story a lot of times.
Leah:
Yeah. I remember going to the NAJA conference, the Native Media Conference years ago now since COVID, but talking about the difficulty of getting data from either tribal nations or the federal tribal entities, oversight entities as well. And there is a big discussion about data sovereignty and who owns the data and who can use the data? And I think as more and more of that rolls out, it'll be interesting to see what we can get our hands on in a beneficial way. That is so hard because you want to be protective of your information, but how do we balance sharing and keeping that information where it's appropriate?
Ramona:
Right. And perhaps wanting to protect your people as well, too. And the perception of your tribal nation, especially when so many times media has just come in to tell them maybe negative stories that impact your people. And there was Dalton Walker, journalist with the-
Leah:
Big fan.
Ramona:
With the Native American Journalists Association and also Indian country Today, he's great. When I was a student with the American Indian Journalism Institute, he came and he talked to us young Native students and shared with us his experience with the Red Lake shootings and covering that as a Native journalist. And he said, from what I recall, that so many people responded to cover the shooting that they had a parking lot full of journalists, but since he was a member of that tribe, they pulled him aside and guided him door to door just to door knock and to talk to people and get the stories, whereas the rest of the journalists didn't get that access. So that's also another benefit of having more Native journalists in the newsroom.
Leah:
Oh yeah, definitely.
Ramona:
Yeah. And you know what? That's something really exciting that PBS NewsHour ended up launching. PBS NewsHour announced that they're hiring six new journalists in United States cities often given little attention in national news coverage, which are often black, Indigenous and communities of color to better capture the human experiences of a broad range of the communities that make up the country. And this TVNewser 2021 article said, the new report project will hire journalists with deep knowledge of their communities and a keen interest in bringing often undertold stories to NewsHour's digital, social, and broadcast platforms. And it's an effort that I think more and more news stations across the country should start doing.
Leah:
Absolutely. There are so many, I feel like so many opportunities for up and coming Native journalists, even Native tech people too, to be the support for the journalistic work as well. I just got another email today from a large one of those million listener podcasts needing just a tape sync to be done, but they know they want to hire somebody who's Native from the area, because they're out in one of the coasts, right. Where I'm sure they could easily hire somebody that they know already. But they're putting effort into hiring somebody from the tribal community, so things are changing
Leah:
If we could start from scratch and build a system, a Native system or Anishinaabe because you're Anishinaabe and I know, or let me just ask the question first and then I'll add a little side note. If we could build a system, say you, Daniel and I, are sitting here and we're like, "Let's try to build something." I know we would talk to our elders. We would put down our tobacco and we would do all the things necessary to get the wheels in motion to start building a new system. But I'm just curious what that might look like for you, if you've put some thought to that, what would your dream look like? And knowing you are one voice of many voices who would contribute to this.
Ramona:
Thank you. That is such a good question that no one has ever asked me in my 10 years of working in journalism. And I feel it's so in important for starting from scratch for journalists, to understand and allow the people that are trusting them to share their stories, to really let them identify themselves from the beginning of journalist time of covering stories related to Indian country. When you're interviewing somebody, you can ask them, how do they identify their tribal affiliation? Do they have an Ojibwe name or do they want to go by their English name? And really let our people identify themselves in the story. I know I was interviewed once as a young student journalist being involved in the programs to try to get more Natives into the newsroom. And I had said, I was a member of the Bad River Band, I was Ojibwe, and then in the article had said that I was Chippewa.
Ramona:
I was like, "Whoa, I didn't know that I was that." So I just think that it's really... Chippewa is another name that was given to the Ojibwe, but I just really think it's important to let the person you're talking with, identify themselves. So after you're getting their name, your first and last name, how do you spell that? Also, asking them, what's your tribal affiliation? Because I see so many stories that just say this person's Native American, this person's Native American and it doesn't identify what tribes they're affiliated with. So that personally is just one little aspect of one little thing that bothers me, but in an ideal journalism environment that holds true to Anishinaabe values.
Ramona:
I think it would look like having journalists of color in media stations across the country. I think it's so important to have a diverse workplace because we all hold some experience on the diverse communities we're covering. And if we started from scratch that could look like having more strength in the programs that already exist, promoting journalists of color, like the Native American Journalists Association, like the National Association of Black Journalists, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, Asian American Journalist Association, all of those organizations I feel deserve the funding that they need to be able to carry out their missions. And I think if that happened in the beginning of journalism time, if those organizations were around and had a say in all the newsrooms across the country, I think it would definitely be a good starting point.
Leah:
Excellent. Well, I'm just going to throw a couple things out there, see what sticks. I think with the advent of podcasting and YouTube and all social media there is such an opportunity to just rethink what journalism is and who it belongs to and who's allowed to be the journalist. Like, do you need a piece of paper on a wall to be a journalist? Or can you be the elder who wants to get some stories out about their tribe or even their block. Right. I think these technological innovations and options are going to play and are playing a large role in making sure that journalism is less centralized or less under one banner of this large organization of this large organization. But instead we can have these natural growths of journalism from those who are in their neighborhoods with their feet in the grass, so to speak.
Ramona:
Husband and wife team, you guys, Daniel and Leah Lemm, you guys are doing great things for Indian country with this podcast, Wisdom Continuum, focusing on Native innovations for generations and with this podcast where you're celebrating Native knowledge for thoughtful, healthier, more just future, without this podcast in existence there would be less highlighting of all the good works of Native people in the community. So I just applaud you guys for teaming up together, and I want to know how you guys do it as a husband and wife team. It's so cool.
Leah:
Thank you, Ramona. That is really wonderful to hear. Yes, I do most of the work.
Daniel:
This is true.
Leah:
But Daniel is a good sport and also knows a lot of really great people to talk to.
Ramona:
But doesn't it feel like you guys are making a huge difference in the community and across Indian country and beyond? Because you're also raising awareness for the non-Native communities about all these great things that Native people are doing.
Leah:
That is true. That's been one of the more surprising benefits. Because when I think of creating this body of work, these are what I would call the next level conversations, they're not Indians one on one, right? They're, okay. We have our American Indian history. I don't know everything. I don't know all the treaties. So don't ask me, don't ask me about that. But we're trying to get to the next level of what can happen? What's possible? And what has been, and what could be again, and what people are thinking about, what wisdom do people have that we can celebrate and carry forth and bring to the surface?
Ramona:
Beautifully said, Leah. And then it's nice to have with your guys' podcast, a balance with Dakota and Ojibwe produced, because there is a lot of times I feel like where a lot of folks might not know of the Dakota history of Minnesota.
Daniel:
And Ramona, for me this podcast is not unlike the Native Report in many ways, because the Native Report is sharing stories about the good things that are happening in our communities. And all too often you can read in the newspaper the things that aren't going so well. So I, for years looked at the Native Report as a place to go to see what's good in our communities. So to me, this podcast is an extension of a Native Report in it being a model for talking to individuals, working in communities about what's going on, and as Leah said, taking those conversations to the next level for the future.
Ramona:
And I can't wait to see all of the amazing things that the future generations of Natives have before them. And like you said, Leah, it is a really good time to be a Native journalist and be a Native storyteller. And Natives are some of the original storytellers of the United States of our country. And I think that with podcasts and these different technology opportunities that are now generation of Native people have at their fingertips is just going to be endless opportunities for Native storytelling to continue to be elevated and heard across Indian country and beyond.
Leah:
I love seeing any other podcasts pop up from Native folks. I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Yes. How could I listen?" And seeing the names are always so fun.
Daniel:
And hit that subscribe button.
Leah:
The one I saw recently... That's right. What was it? The Commod Pod. And I was like, "That name is perfect."
Ramona:
Oh, you should look up Toasted Sister Podcast. I love it. So much good Indigenous foods.
Leah:
I know. I wish episodes came out every day. It's like, how can we all coordinate our content, so there's at least one podcast coming out every day, if not every hour?
Ramona:
It would be so cool. It's so true. It's so true. That's what I feel like. There's so many stories of Indian country to be told that sometimes it feels like there's not enough of us.
Leah:
Yeah. Each person. I want to just give a recorder to each person.
Ramona:
That's why it is beautiful that more and more community journalists are popping up and people are continuing to dive into storytelling. That's why that is so important because there are so many stories that need to be heard. And I have seen so many times of people going on social media and Facebook live-ing protest they're at, or going and covering things in the moment just as they're there in the flesh. And then with those happenings, it does at times make it more likely to end up in a news story.
Leah:
Yeah. There's wide open opportunities. So it's very exciting.
Ramona:
Leah, you had mentioned the opportunities that a lot of Native peoples are having at this time and how it is a really good time to get into the journalism industry. And I would like to mention that Native Report has an associate producer position open at the moment. And the Native American Journalists Association has a job board on their website of all these positions in the journalism industry that are out there right now. And a lot of organizations will go to NAJA and pay to have them post their job openings on the NAJA Board Job board because Native journalists are in such high demand and there is such a strong desire to have more Natives in the newsroom. I think I was just looking on there the other day, and I think I saw something with Major Baseball League.
Leah:
Oh, really?
Ramona:
Had a position on there. Yes. They're trying to get more Natives in these positions to tell stories of Indian country, to break down negative stereotypes and build a bridge and better understanding Native people.
Leah:
And you know what? Not just that too. I totally legit everything you said. I just want to add Native people can also be journalists for general assignment too, and bring their tribal values, their family values and the way that they look at journalists, we look at journalism, into the newsroom for all content and talking about health and talking about crime and talking about education. All of these things seen through a Native lens would benefit as well and is a goal that I would love to see come to fruition in the future. Just to be a regular beat reporter that isn't the Native voice, because you have so many Native people in your newsroom. There's plenty of space to do what you want to [crosstalk 00:34:29]. Because what if it is baseball?
Daniel:
Leah, what does it mean to be on general assignment? I don't understand that terminology.
Leah:
Well, some people have different beats, right? You're going to cover sports, you're going to cover politics. Right. So to have a Native person in the newsroom, I personally would be like, "I want to cover Native issues or I want to cover Indian country." That's great, but you can also be a Native reporter and cover those other things as well. Cover health, cover politics, cover sports ball and all that. And it doesn't necessarily have to be about Native people, but you can bring your values, your tribal values, your family values, your perspective worldview, et cetera, to those spaces as well.
Ramona:
Totally understand what you're saying. That's so right. When I was in the KBJR 6 newsroom, I really loved covering the courts. I loved covering the crime beat and I was on the courts beat for a while. But since I did want to cover so many topics related to the Native community, they created the tribal government beat and they put me on it. So I was like, "That's awesome." But I think a lot of times we, as journalists need to hold our ethical compass and values close to our hearts in our positions. And when we do that, then I feel Anishinaabe values can coexist in media. And we need to though continue to be honest with our sources on, if we feel a particular story, won't be covered in a timely matter since maybe the story pitch was made to us, or if some areas of their claims need to be confirmed with different official organizations or tribal nations.
Ramona:
We need our community to have a good understanding of how media works as well for that relationship. And we might need more time and research to be put into a particular Native topic or issue, and it's not something we can publish right then. And that can be especially difficult if it's a Native issue that's not getting the media coverage and attention that it deserves.
Leah:
Yeah. I feel like that is definitely really tricky. Living up in basically the iron range, we're on the edge here, but with pipelines and mining and stuff like that, when it comes to reporting and journalism, I would love to hand the microphone to my northern tribes relatives and just be like, "Have at it." But we have to incorporate responses from the industries at hand that are in conflict with tribes and tribal citizens. And to hear those responses can be like, why have been giving them time, but it is, oh, my art I'm clutching it. It's important to follow the rules as well.
Ramona:
It's delicate, but I would love to take a moment and applaud a local non-Native journalist in Duluth KBJR 6's Bonney Bowman. Recently in the Carlton County area, some individual tribal members of the Fond du Lac tribal community on their own time took to social media. Ultimately, did in-person protesting of child abuse allegations. Some videos surfaced and some testimony of former foster students were unfolding, and it ultimately led to real big changes for children within that community. But many people, like I said, were taking to social media and protesting the care of some children within their community. And it sparked a lot of people to file official complaints with the Department of Human Services and with Carleton County and with the police. And I know that these people reached out to a lot of media organizations, but the only one I know for sure did some real digging and deep dive research into it was KBJR 6's Bonney Bowman.
Ramona:
And it led to news articles with headlines such as, police launch investigation after your online child abuse allegations. And then eight days later, children removed from foster homes after allegations of abuse. So that was a huge example of the power of the Native people and media and them working together to get the story out there and a journalist, a non-Native journalist taking it very seriously and taking the time to send a lot of media inquiries to investigate the claims. So it's stories like that and journalists who are taking the time and care in reporting on these Native issues, that gives me strong hope for the future of journalism.
Leah:
Yeah, that's great. That's great to hear. There's so much out there. Right. And to be able to focus on one thing, I find it to be a challenge because I want to address everything. Right. I want to talk to everybody, everything today and knowing that that's not possible and being able to rely on our non-Native allies to help is going to be imperative to get the stories out.
Ramona:
Yeah. And do you guys feel like there's this thirst to hear more Native stories and where do you think that is coming from? Why now?
Leah:
I have my jaded perspective of newsrooms realizing how poorly they've functioned in the past, and wanting funding to cover Indian country and seeing an opportunity to being able to show funders that they're expanding into covering it better. That's my jaded point of view, but also I think Native media has grown leaps and bounds, and I'm willing to bet that these other organizations are seeing that and noticing and know they need to rise to the challenge because Native people are a part of their communities as well and are listening and are demanding better coverage. How about you Daniel? Anything?
Daniel:
Yeah. I agree with everything Leah said and-
Leah:
Oh, you don't have to.
Daniel:
I wonder if it goes back to Standing Rock and the international media presence that was there. And that really brought to the forefront, a significant issue in Indian country that non-Native people may have started paying more and more attention to what was going on in Native communities. So it could be in some ways I'm jaded too, because what is the intent of the person who's trying to cover a story and can I trust them with my story? And in another way, if we don't open up and share our stories, how could it be covered and how could we pull in our non-Native allies to help us with issues as well as promote the good stories, good things that are going on in our communities as well? Why that has happened all of a sudden, I'm not as knowledgeable in that area.
Daniel:
So I tie it back to Standing Rock from a few years ago, and the strength of Native media organizations. This is something that there's a number of organizations who have been working for years to say, "Natives, we exist and we're here and you should be covering our stories and who we are." And I'm glad that media organizations, at least some of them are starting to pick up on that and starting to work to bring those stories into their coverage.
Ramona:
That was so well said. And I also have to go back to where we said, you agree with everything that Leah said, because I have to say happy wife, happy life.
Leah:
He is not dumb.
Ramona:
I'm just kidding.
Leah:
He is smart.
Daniel:
No, that was actually advice that was given to me, oh, about 10 years ago, Leah.
Leah:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Not from Leah, but...
Leah:
How long have we been married?
Daniel:
It's been something like 10 years.
Leah:
10 years.
Ramona:
Congratulations to you guys. You guys are a power couple.
Leah:
Thank you. We're we're trying to use that power for good.
Ramona:
You are. You are. Absolutely. I'm going to pitch people to you guys' wisdomcontinuum.com. Check out their website.
Daniel:
Thank you.
Ramona:
And what they're up to.
Leah:
Yeah, for sure. Yep. Yeah. Sorry. When you're talking Daniel, about what's been happening, but I think definitely Standing Rock. And it goes back to the Red Lake tragedy and then Standing Rock and then environmental fights and racial reckoning after George Floyd's murder and COVID and the pandemic and how hard it's hit Native communities and tribes. And then all the way up to boarding school relatives finding remains. It's just all of these things, I feel like people are getting the hits like, "Oh, all this time, I didn't know." When we've known amongst our selves and our families about the inequality and the history and everything like that, that people are not, I don't want to say ashamed, but the eyes are opening to history and current events. I don't think people want to be in the dark about things as much anymore. Some do, some don't.
Ramona:
That was really, really well said. And it just sparked something that I was surprised to learn when I started on the Native Report show. I had heard from the former producer on the show that the original creators of Native Report was an immediate response to some of that negative media coverage from the Red Lake shooting tragedy, just seeing all of the parachuting in when a bad thing had happened in a Native community. And that along with there being several Indian hate groups in Mille Lacs county of Minnesota. And so there is so much more progress to be done when it comes people's respect and knowledge of those of Indian country. And there is a lot of, when we say bridging the Native and non-Native culture and shining some light on who we are as Native people and humanizing ourselves as Native people ultimately will hopefully help with some of the really negativity that happens towards Native people every day in our state and beyond.
Leah:
Yeah. There's a lot there too, even self perception. It affects self perception as well. How do we end this on a high note?
Ramona:
I just feel that like you guys were saying the amount of media that is out there that is Native led and Native produced, and that, that has been growing, like you said, Leah is so encouraging and it is so exciting to see this. And it really shows that we as Native people who may make up less than 2% of the United States population, but we have unique sovereign nations across the country that we are here. We have big voice and we are being heard and there is a desire, a very strong desire to hear our perspectives. And that is a beautiful, beautiful thing.
Leah:
Totally. If we don't tell our own stories, somebody else will. So we got to do it and we're doing it. And the voice is getting stronger.
Ramona:
That was beautiful.
Leah:
Okay. Thank you so much, Ramona, it's always a joy to speak with you.
Ramona:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Ramona, it was a pleasure to talk with you as well too. Thank you.
Ramona:
That was super fun. I feel you gave really wisdom at the end with that statement that you said, and then I really liked Daniel, how you also said at the beginning of the podcast about hearing from one community is one community. And so you guys it was a really great treat to talk with you guys today.
Leah:
Absolutely. So quick question before we disconnect. From your bio, I... Okay. Here it is. I know when we were talking, you mentioned Bad River Band and Ojibwe. In here it says Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. That's the official name though.
Ramona:
Yes. So that is the official name of the Band. And so I can totally see where the journalist would have labeled me as Chippewa in that interview. But I feel each Native person should be able to identify themselves as an individual. So where I was coming from during that interview when I was a very young Native person, was that I had said to the interviewer that I was Ramona Marozas with the Bad River Band and I'm Ojibwe. And so I think it's a very delicate balance because now I'll go by the official tribal name, the Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. But I was always taught by my grandmother, an American Indian studies professor, that Chippewa was a name that was given to the Ojibwe by European settlers.
Ramona:
And so I do identify as being with the Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. So you could do Ramona Marozas of the Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa, or you could do Ramona Marozas tribal member of the Bad River Band period. But I have no problem now in the context of doing the full name like that. Had the person who had interviewed me written out the full official name of the tribe, it would've been a little bit less alerting to me versus just Ramon Marozas Chippewa.
Leah:
Right.
Ramona:
[inaudible 00:52:54]
Leah:
Yeah. I was curious about that because if there's any other way of going about that, because I know NAJA has their recommendations too, when talking about citizen saying citizen and stuff like that, that I'm like, "But if somebody describes themself as something, I'm just going to default to that."
Ramona:
That's usually-
Leah:
Or like when people say they're a descendant because they're not enrolled, but they're tied to the tribe. t's more complex than being like, this is the formula.
Ramona:
Right. It's like a journalist can cover their back by going by the exact wording that whoever you're interviewing defines themselves as. Because we will have that come up a lot for us as well, where one person might call themselves a tribal member of this band or a citizen of this band or a direct descendant. I think usually if somebody will say they're with this band, I will look it up and take the official, federally recognized name of that band. So I think that's appropriate. So you absolutely can say that I'm with the Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa Indians. Chippewa Indians is actually in the full name of my band, personally would I describe myself as a Chippewa Indian? Probably not.
Leah:
No. What is that?
Ramona:
I would say I'm Ojibwe or Anishinaabe. Yeah. That's why I usually say to the journalists, you can cover yourself by asking this person how they identify themselves. So that's what we do in our elder segments too, we're really careful with a moment with the elder segments. We want to make sure that the people we're talking with identified themselves as an elder or are tribally recognized as an elder win their community. So yes, I'm really glad you circled back around about that because it's very rare that I even shared that story about the time the person that was interviewing me just said, Ramona Marozas, Chippewa. And I would've preferred that they say Ramona Marozas, Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa, or at least named my name to the band.
Ramona:
Because I think it's so important when you're talking to somebody with Native roots to find out what tribe they're a member of. And that even was something that I was digging into a missing person case out of Minneapolis while I was still with the mainstream news department. And I called the Minneapolis Police Department and said, "Can you please tell me what tribal nation, this missing woman is a member of?" And they didn't have that on record. And I thought that that was really, and you guys can use this in the podcast too, because it is a really big problem with the jurisdictional reporting on Native peoples when Native people are involved in crimes, taking place across the country, it's really important that law enforcement identify what tribal nation, these crime victims and suspects are members of. Because when they're investigating wouldn't you think that they would go straight to that tribal community, that person is a member of to learn more about their investigation. So there's a long ways to go for law enforcement in that realm of identifying tribal affiliations of Native peoples.
Ramona:
And I know it's getting better with Holland and with the Minnesota's missing and murdered relatives office here in Minnesota, they're making a lot of effort now to make that a requirement for different law enforcement agencies across the country. So that's really good.
Leah:
Yeah, for sure. Wow.
Ramona:
Whole nother topic.
Leah:
Lots of stuff to do.
Ramona:
Yeah. Well-
Leah:
Add it to the list.
Ramona:
Was a good conversation.
Leah:
Yeah. Thank you, Ramona. Have a great rest of the day and we will keep in touch.
Ramona:
Thank you. Bye guys.
Leah:
Okay. Later.
Daniel:
Thank you.
Leah:
All right. Ramona Marozas, Senior Producer for the Native Report and she's a proud tribal member of the Bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa. She's an Anishinaabekwe.
Daniel:
It was really fun to sit here and watch two media people geek out about a topic they are experts in. I really enjoyed talking with Ramona. Two things that I took away were both from the question. Well, I took away a ton, two things that I'll highlight here, when you ask the question about, if you could start journalism from scratch again, what would you focus on? And one thing that we talked a bit about is to, she said to ask people how they want to be identified in the story, which seems obvious in some ways because it puts the story not from your perspective, but it really puts the story on the perspective of the people who are part of it.
Daniel:
So from a non journalist standpoint, that's something that I was like, "Cool, start with asking people how they want to be identified in the story." And then when she talked about journalists of color and having a diverse workplace provides for more strength in programs that advocate for BIPOC or Black Indigenous and people of color journalists. And something even that you talked about, even in that conversation, it's not only the journalists, it's also the technicians and the people behind the scenes and how everybody works together to...
Leah:
The editors and the managers and the general managers. And the president and CEOs.
Daniel:
There you go. Keep naming the...
Leah:
And even the CFOs.
Daniel:
I love it. We both tilted our heads back on those CFOs. Thank you for that plug, Leah. But Leah, what are you taking away from the interview here?
Leah:
I feel like I talked a lot, so I'm going to probably just let you talk at the end here. Otherwise, what else am I going to say?
Daniel:
I liked how she started asking us questions.
Leah:
Yep. I do that too.
Daniel:
That's cool because I just met Ramona and it was a great conversation and it's like she was being herself and she's a journalist and journalists are going to ask questions. So I thought it was great how she asked us for our thoughts.
Leah:
Wonderful.
Daniel:
I was also thinking about the... Because I want to keep talking here. How people want to be identified in the story and how she wanted to be identified versus how she was identified. And it's so interesting when it comes to tribal names, what the official name is versus how people refer to their communities in a modern day context or today. So Lower Sioux is known as Lower Sioux Indian community in the state of Minnesota. That's the federally recognized tribal name. And in the way I introduced myself and we had conversations about this, just coming into setting of the podcast. I say that I'm a member of the Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate, and I think that that's one of those things where I'm really glad that we have the ability and the power to control how we identify ourselves and how that really changes our perspectives from somebody telling our story versus us telling our story. So yeah, that's something that was so cool for Ramona to hit on and for all of us to keep in mind that being in control of the narrative about ourselves and our communities is super important.
Leah:
Yeah. We have more power than we think.
Daniel:
Right.
Leah:
When we're talking to a journalist or reporter, we can control what we say. We can say, "I'm not answering that question." Or "I want to answer a different question." Or anything like that, or this is off the record, stuff like that. That's you having an empowered voice basically, which can be tough because you're talking to somebody who's in a different position. But I want in this work is to be on equal playing field at the very minimum, but also I defer a lot to the person I'm talking to because that's why I'm talking to them.
Daniel:
And that's why we need more journalists of color.
Leah:
Absolutely.
Daniel:
We are talking with so many great people and we want to say that your input matters too. Do you know someone who's working on systems change or centering Indigenous values? Or do you have a topic or interview suggestion? If so, then email wisdomcontinuum@gmail.com
Leah:
Find Wisdom Continuum online at wisdomcontinuum.com and on social media on Instagram and Twitter @wisdomcontinuum. Thank you to Wisdom Continuum's consulting producer Multitude. Miigwech Manda Lillie for the production help. I'm Leah.
Daniel:
I'm Daniel. This is Wisdom Continuum.
Leah:
Cool.
Daniel:
Leah, I just want to say, I'm really proud of you for staying on your chair. And I see it's one of those that are solid.
Leah:
Four chair legs on the ground the whole time.
