Hosts Reflect
Gaining Wisdom
Today we’re back with a hosts-only episode where we discuss turning knowledge to wisdom. Join us as we take time to digest what we’re hearing and learning. At times with clarity, sometimes with a stumble. It’s a process!
TRANSCRIPT
Leah:
Boozhoo, I'm Leah Lemm, citizen of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe.
Daniel:
Hau Mitakuyapi, I'm Daniel Lemm, citizen of Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate.
Leah:
And this is Wisdom Continuum. We are bringing you conversations from awesome Native folks to celebrate Native wisdom for a healthier, thoughtful, more just future.
Daniel:
Absolutely. We have lots of great voices coming up in the future. We'll continue to hear from people whose knowledge applies to literature, academia, finance, languages, and more. Native wisdom knows no bounds. Many people are applying that wisdom to change, help, and disrupt systems that they're working within.
Leah:
Today. We're back with a host's only episode where we discuss turning knowledge to wisdom.
Daniel:
It's important to take time to digest what we're hearing, especially weeks and months later, it could take a lifetime even.
Leah:
It's almost like we can learn this wisdom and embody it little by little. So it's not just overnight process.
Daniel:
That's not how wisdom works.
Leah:
So hopefully through this process between me and you, Daniel, we are practicing some wisdom in reflection.
Daniel:
Before we get to it. How's it going?
Leah:
It's okay. How are you doing Daniel?
Daniel:
It's been a long winter. I'm looking forward to spring.
Leah:
See, it's all fun and games until that snow starts to melt. I don't even know what's going to happen to the river by our house. How high that's going to get.
Leah:
I'm a little nervous, but I'm ready with a bucket.
Daniel:
We've got that flood insurance though.
Leah:
Do we?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Leah:
We do? Okay, good. I probably insisted on that living next to a river.
Daniel:
But you know how I am when I was looking at elevation changes and all that. And I figured when we bought the house that if our house floods, there's a lot of other people already in trouble.
Leah:
That's true. And really scary to think about, well, when we bought our house, we looked at like the hundred year flood zone and that doesn't reach our house, but I feel like the hundred year flood occurrences are happening like every other year now. It's kind of scary.
Daniel:
That is one way of looking at the level of the river. Another way that I'm thinking of is, there are rapids downstream that when I take the kayak down, it's going to be easier to get through those.
Leah:
You won't have to jump over rocks?
Daniel:
That's right. Or drag the kayak through boulders and all that. With the change, there are pros and cons to that. It's about how we adapt to that change.
Leah:
That's true. See, I talk about adaptation a skill definitely important. And the reason why we are still here today, but I really like having my feet on land. If this turns into Waterworld, Kevin Costner movie.
Daniel:
You at least learn how to swim though?
Leah:
I know how to swim. I can doggy paddle, but I really like my feet on the ground. I like land, I love outer space, I think that's very cool, but I don't want to go there. I also think large bodies of water are very cool, but I will enjoy them from shore.
Daniel:
I guess we make a great team?
Leah:
I suppose. So Daniel, I know we're married. We live together, but I also feel like we have our separate lives too. Like you have your work, I have mine. How's it going? How are things, how are you spending your time for like 10 hours a day when you're working? How do you feel about it?
Daniel:
Well, work is going relatively well. I mean, I'm challenged every day and I like to be challenged, to think differently and apply what I know and what I've learned to any sort of situation at hand.
Leah:
And I want to make sure as we get into the bones of our conversation to ask you how you apply your own wisdom to your work? Kind of like we would with somebody we interview.
Daniel:
Speaking of people that we interview, how are things going in your work, Leah?
Leah:
I enjoy and love the work that I do talking to people is just a joy. And then of course, there's the other side to it where I find it hard to balance my time and attention in my work. So what are those areas of my work that I need to focus most on? And these are conversation I've been having with good friends. Thank you. I know you're listening. But just, what are those things to focus on? Because I'm being asked to do quite a few things with my time, which I think is fantastic. And having so many opportunities is wonderful, but there's some things that I do better than other things. And I'm only one person. So I'm having a time, but it happens every once in a while.
Daniel:
So it's what happens when you go through of growth.
Leah:
It's definitely a growth phase and I'm finding out more and more what brings me more stress and what brings me less stress and to bring this into the concrete world and being asked more to give presentations in front of people.
Leah:
Which is amazing, and I love it and I want to be able to do it. I am still however, primarily somebody who loves to interview people and have a back and forth conversation. So to just stand and present in front of others with just me, I think takes far more energy than to have a conversation. And then to produce that conversation for others to listen to, I do look forward to every keynote or presentation. I think it's fabulous, but it definitely takes an extra amount of energy to be able to accomplish. And I have just more stress about it.
Daniel:
What if your presentation was really formatted like a conversation, or maybe you talk most of the time though there's that audience interaction along it, so maybe it doesn't feel so much like you're up there talking for an extended period of time. People are listening to you, they're watch you. Hopefully they're paying attention, because sometimes when you're presenting, you never know, trying to read the audience while you're talking. There's a lot that's going on that when you have a conversation with somebody, it's more engaging and what you are trying to get across, the message, maybe it will stay with people more than getting up there, talking questions.
Leah:
I think in my presentations, I'll be able to have them be different than a typical presentation with just one voice because I have a lot of recordings to play and have gotten permission from interviewees to use them in a presentation manner, which I'm stoked for because then it's not just me, I'm trying to do something that will adjust to my style a bit more like lean towards my style and bringing in other voices. Hopefully I can be more comfortable in it. So if you're interested in hiring me for a presentation, talking about expanding the narrative to include more voices, especially in Indian country, I'm working on it. And by the time this is out for a couple weeks, I will have some good presentations under my belts.
Daniel:
One thing that I know that you're really good at is putting undue pressure upon on yourself.
Leah:
How dare you?
Daniel:
Hopefully you're able to work through that. And what I also know about, when you do share, it's always insightful and meaningful and gets people thinking, people learn it's a good use of their time. It's valuable. And I look forward to hearing some of your presentations or even hearing about them because they are good contributions to the community dialogue for whatever it is that you're talking about.
Leah:
Thank you. I think contribution is a good perspective to think about it. I do put a lot of pressure on myself to try to cover a lot of ground, but when I take a step back and try to talk to it or talk about my personal perspective as one Native woman Anishinaabekwe living in Northern Minnesota, I feel like the story comes better. And what I've learned from talking to people hundreds of interviews that I can then share out and show how even interviewing all these people has changed my life and has changed my understanding.
Daniel:
Do you have an example for how your life, your understanding has changed through the hundreds of interviews that you've done?
Leah:
I think that is exactly what we're doing today Daniel, taking our conversations and applying them from just hearing advice, knowledge, etc and then digesting and applying plain old sleeping on it. And then having that turn a level of wisdom I should say. I think that's what we're going to get to today too.
Daniel:
Let's do it.
Leah:
So do you want to kick us off Daniel?
Daniel:
Yeah. What I want to do is reflect on the wisdom shared by Gaby Strong. So the episode with Gaby where we talked about how generosity ties into the work that I do, is that I work for a private foundation whose primary activity is to make grants to nonprofits. And philanthropy is about the love of humankind. So generosity through my work is about making grants to nonprofit organizations so that they can carry out their charitable mission for the community, for the people, for the love of humankind.
Daniel:
And I think about that in the question that I ask Gaby, which was what is generosity to you? And Gaby talked about the value system as Dakota people and generosity being foundational to our lives, and generosity, helping us to be mindful of one another as relatives and as part of a kinship system and how that meant to be a good relative and our value system and through generosity taking care of one another and ensuring that the health and wellbeing of everyone around us was part of that.That we weren't okay unless everybody was okay, that it was all of us or none of us.
Leah:
Speaking of all of us, here comes our dog.
Daniel:
Shuka. I think about generosity in how Gaby talked about that through her work and how that applies to my work as well. And yes, I think about generosity outside of work, certainly because being a good relative doesn't only apply to the work that I do. It also applies to the person that I am and how our relationship is Leah and how our relationship is with Marvin and with Coda, our dog as well. And so that generosity in what Gaby talked about with the kinship system, she talked about the Tiwahe, the Tiyospaye as well as the Oyate. So when I talked about the four of us, maybe our nuclear family, that's the Tiwahe, the Tiwahe is also part of the tiyospaye, which is the extended family, really like the community, if you will. And then the Oyate is the nation of the people, how we are within society in a sense, that's a way of applying it to maybe today's world.
Daniel:
That kinship system works within the teaching of Mitakuye Oyasin or we are all related. Gaby talked about generosity through the teaching of Mitakuye Oyasin and the kinship system that the Dakota kinship system of Tiwahe, Tiyospaye and Oyate.
Daniel:
And I want to take a step back when it comes to Dakota values and my journey to come to understand and learn more about them because I grew up in a household where Dakota values were not specifically discussed. And there's a reason for that. And it has to do with historical trauma, when it comes to forced assimilation and Dakota people existing in Minnesota, within the twin cities. And that's a topic for conversation for another time. So I've had to, as an adult, come to learn more about generosity as a Dakota value. And so some of this is like, this is part of how I'm coming to learn and more about generosity and then how to reflect on that and then apply it. And mine is more getting started a little later in life than as we teach Marvin about our values. Something clicked for me when Gaby was talking about generosity, because I also asked her a question about what can we teach philanthropy about native values and traditions? It wasn't only the sound bite of... First of all, they got to give it all back.
Speaker 3:
That's so good.
Daniel:
Definitely. Gaby also talked about how giving it all back, part of that was saying, we know what's best. We know how to Care for ourselves. We know how to work on systems changed and towards solutions for community wellbeing.
Daniel:
And she's absolutely right. And as I was reflecting on the conversation with Gaby, it reminded me of a story, where learning about the Dakota value of generosity as an adult clicked for me. And it was maybe eight years ago or so when I was working at a different organization still within philanthropy, and a few of us Native people went and talked to a non-native organization, and we were sharing with them about how they may engage with Native communities to be able to do their work. And the conversation was talking about... We were talking about how we're all related. We were talking about how Native thinking is in cycles in more of a circle. And Theresa Peterson also talked about that as well.
Daniel:
And so the picture, the image of a circle came up to the participants, the people that the few of us were talking to, and somebody asked the question about the circle and asking, "how do I get into the inner circle?" And it was kind of a strange question, but I wonder if it had to do with the television show Survivor and like the in crowd or the out crowd or the Inner Circle. And-
Leah:
I Laugh immediately, because I think about The Office when what's his name?
Daniel:
Deangelo
Leah:
Deangelo was the boss and then there's the Inner Circle.
Daniel:
There's many different ways that this plays out that are non Dakota.
Leah:
Well, they're exclusionary.
Daniel:
Exactly. It's not about being inside or outside of the circle, it's about being part of the circle and that Dakota values is not an us versus them sort of mindset it's in all of us philosophy. And I talked about how that circle of kinship will expand and contract as it needs to. And so it's not inside or outside, it's a part of. And that's just a philosophical difference in how I'll just say non Dakota people. And I know it's not only Dakota people who think this way, but maybe-
Leah:
Like dominant society in US?
Daniel:
Dominant society in the US. And even the English language says has everything about me, something in relation to me. And I know that Dakota language is about, how I am part of the world around me. And it doesn't put the person at the center, it puts all of us together. And so I think that was one of those when Gaby was talking about generosity and talking about it as a Dakota value, thinking about the circle and being a part of a circle is the application of that generosity of that kinship system to my work and how I talk about different ways of being generous. So that going back to what Gaby talked about all of us being better off.
Leah:
And then when we talk about philanthropy in general, keeping that in mind makes the work of philanthropy, a part of the fabric of the economy, instead of it being like a handout or donations being a handout or grants, being a handout, it's helping everybody benefits when we think of it that way.
Daniel:
And it's not about the person who's making the contribution, it's about the people who are receiving that and the work that they're doing. So it changes the dynamic of the gift from those who are giving it to those who are receiving it and what they're going to do with it, which is very different in philanthropy where traditionally philanthropy is about ego. It's about how can I look good? It's about power and control. And when you're practicing generosity, that's not what it's about.
Leah:
So like Gaby was talking a lot about indigenizing wealth, being able to decide what to do with wealth instead of relying on another foundation or other organizations, non-native organizations, non Dakota organizations to decide. But instead at NDN collective where she is the Indian foundation, they are taking cues from the communities for where the funds should go.
Daniel:
Because they know communities have the solutions. They also need the resources to address them rather than them or somebody else dictating-
Leah:
The foundation dictating.
Daniel:
... Correct. What the community should be doing.
Leah:
In my older middle years here, I get really grumpy. I am so grumpy these days, but I think it's legitimate, but having this paternalistic organizations, assuming power and making decisions that it's like, "Who gave you the authority to decide, just because you have the funds? You don't know how do you know everything?" So I could go on, but I'm just going to stuff that down for a little bit and be chill.
Daniel:
And we've talked to quite a few Native people whose wisdom is deep.
Leah:
When I start to understand and feel a shift in myself and have these realizations, I feel emotional. I feel vulnerable. I feel I'm on the verge, I'm standing on a Cliff's edge. I feel like I'm ready to jump off this cliff with this parachute of wisdom that I've been gifted. So it's scary, but it's also comforting. I take away so many little things and big things here and there that I just... I can't process it all at once, which is why I think it's important for us to go over the information that we've been gifted and that we've had this journey through. I talked about in our intro discussion about doing presentations and sharing what I've learned. I think one of my biggest lessons that I keep learning over and over again is through Shirley Nordrum again, red lake nation, really great person to talk to.
Leah:
And I have a discussion coming up about the Northwoods and how the story of the Northwoods needs to expand the narrative around it from the settler perspective to an all-encompassing, including Indigenous people, immigrants all of this perspective. So I think Shirley Nordrum had such great insight when it comes to it. One of the main things that has helped shift my own perspective, is going from commodification of the woods of the forest and the idea of natural resources and placing a monetary value on the environment.
Leah:
Going from that, to bringing in the environment, bringing in the Northwoods as a part of our family, as a part of our relatives and seeing the spirit of the woods. And for a little more context, especially as to why this was profound to me is because my big fancy degree undergraduate is in economics, where we try to explain people's behavior using equations, using logic. And I found it to be so sterile and impossible. They do call it the dismal science for a reason. It is not very satisfying, but I feel like maybe there's a way to incorporate all of these other world views into a more complex economic model. But as it stood the way I learned economics, it was very much about assigning utility to anything and everything. I really loved how Shirley would talk about, there's this utilitarian use of the woods that settler mindset as, but she talks about, but how the woods is more than that, it's home to our animal relatives, it's home to medicines that keep us healthy.
Leah:
She said that she looks at the forest as her pharmacy rather than CVS or Walgreens, which I just think is so cool. Like you can see the value in it besides cutting it down and selling it. And to me, that's a big shift in perspective that I want to make sure to share out to others. We do live on a few acres of land with a lot of woods.
Leah:
Well, it's like half woods. And I think about that as I've gone out with my app, my plant identifier app, and notice that we have Red Willow to make your [chan cha cha? 00:32:07].
Daniel:
Nice.
Leah:
We have wild roses and we have ostrich ferns that we could forage, plants available to us that maybe we would've just ripped out and moved because they were inconvenient to us or like milkweed plants. And I used to see a milkweed plant and I was just like, "Is that a weed what is that?" And now when I see a milkweed plant on the edge of the grasses here, I know I've told you, because you like to mow the lawn, like "Watch out for the milkweed plants." It's this different changing relationship with the wood. She's helping me learn lessons.
Leah:
All of our guests are helping both of us learn lessons that enriches our conversations that we have with other people, our conversations that we have amongst ourselves and our child and the relationships that we have with our surroundings.
Daniel:
Thank you for sharing that Leah. I also want to mention that after our conversation with Shirley, there's a position that I was hiring for an accountant position and interviews happened after the conversation with Shirley. And one of the questions that I worked into the interview process was, "What is the value of a tree?"
Leah:
Which we ask Shirley.
Daniel:
And it was heartening. If that's a word, it was inspiring to hear that most of the people that we talked to, talked about multiple values of a tree, and some would talk about the monetary value of a tree, the economic value of a tree, others would talk about the shade that it provides about the oxygen that it gives off. What Shirley talked about, is what a lot of others shared in their responses to a question that I guarantee that nobody was expecting to be asked. So that's one of those things where Native wisdom, when asked questions to mainstream society, maybe we learn that there is more alignment in our thinking than we had previously thought and perhaps maybe it's through our actions where we do see differences.
Leah:
The action I think is huge. I don't doubt that people recognize value beyond a dollar amount, but how that falls in along the spectrum of the value, is that the primary value or like one of the primary values or is that an externality or an additional benefit? How about that? Just a little casual conversation with one another.
Daniel:
I feel like this is the types of conversations that you and I have often, we just don't hit record-
Leah:
That's true.
Daniel:
... On them. Maybe we should hit record more often.
Leah:
Just have microphones hanging all around the house.
Daniel:
I don't know about that. We are talking with so many great people and we want to say that your input matters too. Do you know someone who's working on systems change or centering Indigenous values? Or do you have a topic or interview suggestion? If so, then email wisdomcontinuum@gmail.com
Leah:
Find Wisdom Continuum online@wisdomcontinuum.com and on social media on Instagram and Twitter at Wisdom Continuum, thank to Wisdom Continuum's consulting producer, multitude and Miigwech to Manda Lillie for the production help. I'm Leah.
Daniel:
I'm Daniel. This is Wisdom Continuum.
Daniel:
Leah Lemm, Daniel Lemm, Leah Lemm, Daniel Lemm.
Leah:
That's why I changed my name from Leah Primo to Leah Lemm because Leah Lemm is easier to say it rolls off the tongue a little better. Lealemm, leahlemm.
Daniel:
I thought it's because you married me.
Leah:
No.
