Hosts Reflect
Recognizing Wisdom
How do we recognize wisdom? Hosts Leah and Daniel take a deep look at how community wisdom has influenced their professional lives. They also start to integrate what they’ve learned from the voices they’ve heard from so far on the podcast.
Leah’s work can be found here on her bio page.
Daniel can be found on LinkedIn.
TRANSCRIPT
Leah Lemm:
Boozhoo. I'm Leah Lemm, citizen of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe.
Daniel Lemm:
Hau Mitakuyapi. I'm Daniel Lemm, citizen of Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate.
Leah Lemm:
And this is Wisdom Continuum. We are bringing you conversations with awesome Native folks to celebrate Native wisdom for a healthier, thoughtful, more just future.
Daniel Lemm:
We'll be continuing to do so. We have lots of great voices coming up in the future. We'll hear from people who work in philanthropy, in higher education, people who are master gardeners. The list of topics really runs the gamut because there's no shortage of wisdom in Native communities.
Leah Lemm:
Very true, but today on Wisdom Continuum, it's the new year, and we're into our new podcast, and we're going to take some time to reflect on our own inner wisdom, wisdom we've gained or learned from our communities. But today, we're going to do a hosts only show, and we'll do this every once in a while because while we want to make sure we hear from others, that's a priority, it's also important to take time to absorb and digest all this great information for ourselves and everyone else, because it's hard for me to take the time to sit back and relax and think about everything I've learned in the rush of day-to-day life. It's good to sit back in your recliner and take that time.
Daniel Lemm:
Yeah. Sometimes you just get so busy, and you just had one thing on top of another. Winter is a good time to reflect on the year behind us and think about the year ahead. So, we'll highlight wisdom we've learned that helped us along our own paths to our current lives, and even this podcast. But first, happy new year, Leah, at least according to the Gregorian calendar, huh?
Leah Lemm:
That's right. According to the calendar that we go by here, January 1st is the start of the new year, but we know that's not necessarily true for all cultures. A lot of times, it's in the spring when new year starts, which I think seems more appropriate. So, do you have any reflections on the past year or anything like that?
Daniel Lemm:
Oh, yeah. The first one that comes to mind is just about resilience. '21 being a year where you thought things were going to start going in one direction, they were starting getting better, and then it's like one restart after another, and it's been a difficult year pretty much across the board for people.
Leah Lemm:
For everyone. We really have to tap into our ability to adapt. This last year has been a lesson in patience, not just patience with other people, but patience with myself, because I do like to go, go, go, get things done, and make sure I'm productive, but that's kind of one of those things I've learned, is productivity does not define me as a person, or makes me... Productivity doesn't necessarily make me a worthy individual, worthy to exist. So, just existing is sometimes work in and of itself.
Daniel Lemm:
Yeah, you're not a robot. You are a human.
Leah Lemm:
[Meep 00:03:52], [morp 00:03:52].
Daniel Lemm:
You do need to consume organic matter and take time for yourself to rest up and think what may come ahead, start to plan, and then make adjustments as you need to.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah, you're right. Are you setting any goals or any resolutions for the next year?
Daniel Lemm:
Next year?
Leah Lemm:
For this coming year?
Daniel Lemm:
You know, I did something.
Leah Lemm:
Uh-oh.
Daniel Lemm:
I signed myself up for a diet.
Leah Lemm:
A diet?
Daniel Lemm:
It's called Whole30. I figure I need a little reset in my food and beverage consumptions, so that's something that I've set for myself, to lead a more healthier, nutritional lifestyle in '22, which I know is not... It's not innovative. It's not new.
Leah Lemm:
You mentioned the Whole30 diet, but there's a lot of initiatives in Indian country about going back to eating closer to the earth, a more Indigenous diet. What if there was an Indigenous reset time to eat? See, calling it a diet, it's definitely a loaded word, but even just making sure that we eat closer to how our ancestors ate, it's just so empowering, I think.
Daniel Lemm:
I'm sensing a few conversations that we should have this year for Wisdom Continuum.
Leah Lemm:
Yes, I think so too because there are so many great gardens and, like I said, food initiatives that are out there that are really remembering the ways that tribes ate in the past. I don't necessarily have any resolutions. I think the wisdom that I've gained has pointed me to perhaps not necessarily make resolutions. But I have toyed with the concept of living like an elf. So, we just revisited Lord of the Rings, and I'm rereading slash listening to the books, but we watched the movies not too long ago and I thought, wouldn't it be nice to live like an elf, just read a ton of books and history, and eat good food, and live peacefully? That's kind of my 2022 goal, live like an elf.
Daniel Lemm:
That's a pretty solid goal. Like the Keebler Elf or-
Leah Lemm:
No, like Lord of the Rings elves. Please.
Daniel Lemm:
I just wanted to make sure that we were clear on the elf lifestyle.
Leah Lemm:
Yes. There are many different kinds of elves that are in popular culture. Okay. So, with that said, and now that we're professionals at segueing-
Daniel Lemm:
Also, really good at non-sequitur-ing.
Leah Lemm:
Tangents, non sequiturs, and segues. Let's get into the task at hand, into today's conversation about the wisdom that we've gained in our lives as it pertains to our professions, and even this podcast, because I could talk about wisdom all day long that I've learned from making music or being a parent, and we'll save that maybe for another day, but right now it's kind of what put us on our path to our current careers. Do you want to go first, or should I go first?
Daniel Lemm:
Go for it, Leah. I'm excited to hear what you've got to say.
Leah Lemm:
Me, too. We'll see what comes out. So, as you might know, I'm a media professional. I've been in media since, I don't know, 2000 [inaudible 00:08:14].
Daniel Lemm:
Long enough.
Leah Lemm:
Long enough, and I just love the human voice. But yeah, I host a couple different programs, radio and podcast programs, one in particular I cohost with my brother, your brother-in-law, Cole Premo, called Native Lights: Where Indigenous Voices Shine, which has been really wonderful, really fun, and I also report for Minnesota Native News. I also have another program called Northern Voices: Celebrating Ties to Minnesota's Northland. So, I've basically just really loved talking to people and sharing those conversations out.
Leah Lemm:
The human voice is so moving, so effective at telling stories, at singing, at conveying emotion, that it's just my favorite instrument and method of communication, and that's basically all I knew, is that I really loved the human voice. So, I never really knew what I wanted to do as far as a career goes. It was elusive to me for many, many years. I really struggled with identity, how I wanted to be perceived in the world. Growing up, I was a musician and a math and science nerd. Nerd is used not negatively. I want to make sure to point out-
Daniel Lemm:
Of course, not.
Leah Lemm:
... I am very proud of it. So, I felt like there was a lot of different expectations on what I should do, but I ended up in radio and doing engineering, which I loved, but I found myself to be a little anxious, and there was something missing. There was always just something missing, and so I tried to do a lot of reflecting and reading the usual books, the career books, like, "What color is your parachute?" and StrenghtsFinder, and all those things that supposed to help you magically figure out what you're supposed to do. But I had a transformative conversation with my uncle Amik, Larry Smallwood, late, great Larry Smallwood, and he told me to recognize what my gifts were. He was like, "What do you like to do?" I'm like, "Well, I like to sing. I like the human voice." He was like, "Well, you need to do something with that." I'm like, "Well, I kind of do already in radio, but what are those things that... Where does it apply with giving back to your community while celebrating voice, while celebrating people's stories that they share with their voices?"
Leah Lemm:
I mean, put that in your back pocket. All right? I think it took several years again to be able to really take to heart what Uncle said to me about using your gifts to share with the community, kind of like those are your marching orders, because I wasn't at the time. I was being a person behind-the-scenes, which is great, but I felt like I wasn't helping Indian country or Native folks at all, in any way whatsoever, because media at the time, more so than now, I felt ignored Native voices, and so what I was helping to amplify wasn't Native voices. So, I left my gig without any sort of plan-
Daniel Lemm:
Love it.
Leah Lemm:
... except to explore how to do it. So, I did poetry. I studied creative writing, worked in theater, which was really fun, and had this opportunity to help amplify Native voices with Minnesota Native News, and at first I was like, "No way. You want me to be on the radio and talk and share people's stories?" I thought I would help amplify Native voices from the background, which, again, is wonderful, but Minnesota Native News is a radio newscast that airs across community radio stations in Minnesota, and so when I had that opportunity, like I said, at first I was hesitant, but then I thought, "This is sort of the point of what I'm supposed to do."
Leah Lemm:
So, even though I was super nervous and unsure, I just knew I had to do it, thinking back on the conversation with Uncle Amik, and being like, "You have an interest and an opportunity, and you can help amplify voices in the Native community. This is something you just have to do." So, that's my interpretation of it. So, I would like to think that that wisdom of reflecting and taking time and looking at what you like to do and how it helps others is such a great opportunity to give back to your community. It's very simple, but I feel like we tend to spend so much time worried about, or at least I was worried about how I was perceived and wanting to make sure I fit that engineer role that I thought I needed to be based on my education and outside perspective. So, it was a tough transition putting my voice out there, but I knew putting my voice out there helps amplify other Native voices, so it was all worth it.
Leah Lemm:
I think I... Now, four years into it, it's been really wonderful, and I hope others can do that self-reflection as well, and I just want to bring to our thoughts one of our first conversations on Wisdom Continuum with Shirley Nordrum when you asked her, actually, Daniel, about what does a health ecosystem look like, and she said, "I don't really know because I'm not sure there's any particular healthy ecosystem in existence," but she does know that when something is in alignment, it shines. I just want to bring that out again because I feel like my body and my brain and my spirit, everything comes into alignment and shines like what Shirley was talking about, Shirley Nordrum, on one of our first conversations, that I feel that when I'm able to do the work that I do in podcasting and radio programming focusing on Indian country. So, I think that that's my little blip of wisdom that I've had along my path of doing the work that I do.
Daniel Lemm:
Thank you for sharing that story and the wisdom, Leah. If there's somebody out there listening right now who's in a similar situation that you were in when leaning into your conversation with Uncle Amik, Larry Smallwood, what would you like to say to them?
Leah Lemm:
Can you start the question over?
Daniel Lemm:
Let's say there's someone now in a position that is similar to the one that you were in several years ago when you had your conversation with Uncle Amik, Larry Smallwood. What is some wisdom that you would like to share with them right now?
Leah Lemm:
I think it's to not be ashamed of what you find fun and fascinating. I mean, I always thought it was a completely out-of-this-world, nowhere near accomplishable goal to be a voice on the radio or... Podcasts were just sort of starting at that point, but to dream and not be ashamed of those dreams, I think that's my main takeaway for that because I would feel a lot of shame, or I do feel shame. I also feel very vulnerable because when you share yourself and you share your gifts, the stakes are high, I think, because it's a part of you, and you're sharing yourself with your community, and you can feel rejection if people don't take to it, if others don't appreciate it or take to it like you hope. So, there is risk in being vulnerable. There's risk in sharing what your dreams are, and I would just say I support you. There's no need to feel ashamed, and let me know if you need help.
Daniel Lemm:
There's risk, and risk is just the divergence around an expected outcome, and at least that's how-
Leah Lemm:
Wow. Excuse me. What? You got to say that again. Divergence from an expected outcome?
Daniel Lemm:
Yeah. It's the range of results around an expected outcome. So, some of those results can be negative.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
Results can also be positive.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
What are some of the positive outcomes, or just outcome, that you've experienced as part of doing what you're supposed to do?
Leah Lemm:
There have been so many positive outcomes. It just is so incredible for others, for people I don't know, for people I interview, and for myself. I don't even know if I can go along this list, but somebody commented, a non-Native person commented about not understanding anything about Native people before listening to some of the work I've done, and then being like, "Thank you so much for introducing us to these awesome Native people," because it defies stereotypes, the stereotypes that non-Native people have grown up with, or even Native people seeing in schools, just that Native people don't exist, first of all, which is totally false, and there are the horrible stereotypes that I won't repeat, but people that we talk to, people that we interview and that other people hear, it blows people away because they've never experienced even a friendship with a Native person. So, that's a positive response for a non-Native listener, first of all, but Native folks, it's so great to celebrate ourselves, and I think that's so empowering because I feel like larger society, the white society, everything has defaulted to whiteness, that it's nice to default to nativeness.
Daniel Lemm:
Hey.
Leah Lemm:
So, it feels good. Then for myself, I spent a lot of years being very timid with my voice, and found it hard to speak up, found it hard to speak in class when we were younger, in school, found it hard to speak up in meetings even at work, but I feel like supporting and helping amplify Native voices has mirrored that support back onto myself, that every voice I talk to, every person I talk to, I want them to feel like they have a valid story to tell, and so that over time I've internalized that for myself, that I also have a valid and important story to tell as well. So, a lot of positives, Dan. Not going to lie.
Daniel Lemm:
Some great examples there, Leah.
Leah Lemm:
Well, let's move on to you because I could spend all day talking about how much I've learned from doing the work that I do and what helped set me on this path, but I want to hear about you.
Daniel Lemm:
My story is kind of like yours.
Leah Lemm:
So, first of all, what do you do?
Daniel Lemm:
I lead the financial strategy for a private foundation.
Leah Lemm:
Okay.
Daniel Lemm:
What got me into this role goes back to my grandpa, to my Grandpa [Pendleton 00:24:03] and how he encouraged me to believe in myself. So, if we go back 15, 20 years ago, I graduate from Iowa State University, go Cyclones, with a degree in finance, and I had a plan. My plan was to learn the construction trade. I had worked over the summers doing roofing and waterproofing work. I was getting into framing, into installing windows, building decks, and I wanted to do that. I wanted to spend the next five to 10 years or so getting really good at a specific construction trade. I really enjoyed framing because you didn't have to be exactly precise. You just had to be really close. It was always cool to use the Pythagorean theorem-
Leah Lemm:
Jeez.
Daniel Lemm:
... as part of that work. It was called the three-four-five or the six-eight-10 rule. That's how you make sure that a wall is 90 degrees, a way to measure it out, three feet by four feet by five feet, A squared plus B squared equals C squared.
Leah Lemm:
I understand, Daniel, but you're talking about sides of a triangle with three-four-five. Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
Right, and how you get to 90 degrees. Anyways, I had a plan, and I spent a few years down that path, and one day I was building a deck, and unfortunately got into a fight with a miter saw.
Leah Lemm:
Yes.
Daniel Lemm:
That accident, it cut into my finger about 90% of the way through my ring finger on my left hand, and while I was going through the healing process, I was thinking, "Maybe there's something else out there that I could be doing." I had a degree in finance. Maybe there was an office job, a little safer for me to do, and I could always do home remodeling or construction projects on the side, but I thought, "Yeah, maybe there's a different path that I should go down with my career." A couple months into... I was delivering phone books, the Yellow Pages, and it was not a fun job. I had one hand that I was able to use.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah. I just want to say, the path to our work is not glamorous.
Daniel Lemm:
No.
Leah Lemm:
I skipped over some of my little unglamorous parts, but it's really not. There was a lot... We were definitely pinching pennies and stuff when I was switching careers.
Daniel Lemm:
It's all about those trials and errors that you were talking about earlier.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Thanks for not skipping over the less... Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
Well, if we're not careful here, I'll spend all day talking about this story. So, it was during the healing process when Lower Sioux had posted an ad in the Redwood Gazette for finance director, and my Grandpa Pendleton had told my grandma, "This is something that Daniel could do." So, my grandma, as you know, she likes to send letters, and that's awesome.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
She clipped that job, the help wanted ad out of the paper, and she mailed it to me, and she wrote on it, "Your grandpa says this is something that you could do," and it's not something that I had ever thought of doing, being a finance director for tribal government and the community in which I'm enrolled. I thought about it and said, "Hey, he might be right."
Leah Lemm:
Said, "Hey, hire me."
Daniel Lemm:
So, you throw your hat in the ring and you say, "I'll give this a shot." So, my grandpa encouraging me to apply the knowledge, skills, and abilities that I gained through school with my finance degree, and partly with running my own... I was a subcontractor. That's how I was getting my jobs in construction, in the framing and build index and installing windows and all that, and I was able to apply that to being the finance director at Lower Sioux.
Leah Lemm:
The three-four-five triangle, is that a part of it?
Daniel Lemm:
You know, that's one of those things where you learned something years ago, and you never know how it's going to be applicable in the quote-unquote real world.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
So, I cannot say that in being a finance director or in finance and accounting that I've applied the three-four-five rule, but I would be lying to you if I said I'd sit in some buildings, in meetings, and I'd look around and be like, "That wall is not 90 degrees."
Leah Lemm:
Oh, jeez.
Daniel Lemm:
Somebody messed that up, and I know how much work went into making that look nice so that most people don't realize that wall is off.
Leah Lemm:
Okay. There's a metaphor there somewhere for that. You mentioned framing not being precise, but most of the way there, but in finance, I'm sure you have to be pretty precise.
Daniel Lemm:
You do have to be precise.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
When it comes to accounting, they talked about the materiality threshold. So, you don't have to get right down to the penny. You have to be close enough so that the people who are reading the financial statements are not being misled.
Leah Lemm:
Okay. Oh, yeah. You got to be down to the penny.
Daniel Lemm:
Well, then we can talk about the cost and benefit of getting down to the penny because it could cost you more money to find that penny, and then you have to think, is that a good use of resources?
Leah Lemm:
I don't know. I don't work in accounting.
Daniel Lemm:
So, going back to my Grandpa Pendleton encouraging me to believe in myself, it's something that I... There are other people throughout my career who have believed in me, and I hope still do, and have said, "You know, you should consider doing this," or, "You should consider that opportunity," and I've over the years come to know when to say yes and when to say no, and knowing when to say no has come out of saying yes to things that I probably should not have said yes to, but I learned from those experiences, and that's part of going through life, gaining this wisdom and this knowledge, and just learning, listening more. You know me well enough that at least maybe not at home, but in a professional setting, I listen more than I talk, and I listen more than I talk so that I can understand where other people are coming from, and I soak that in so that when it comes time to make a decision or to share what I have to say, I have something ready to go.
Leah Lemm:
Well, you talk about being encouraged to believe in yourself, so I feel like that's one thing, to be able to hear and be told. Remember when we were talking with Susan Beaulieu just recently in another Wisdom Continuum conversation, is hearing something and being like, "Yeah, that sounds great," but actually internalizing and really absorbing and digesting the information and carrying it out and have it be a part of yourself is a wholly different thing. That's where the wisdom is because you can hear, believe in yourself. I can write that in cursive, put it in a frame, and hang it on my wall. But how do you get it from hanging on your wall and reading it to actually embodying believe in yourself?
Daniel Lemm:
You know, it could be put a few different ways, one of which I've heard. Are you listening to speak, or are you listening to comprehend? If you're learning, if it's listening to speak, then you're not really listening, and you're not really reflecting on what's being said. So, what you're saying is superficial, and you're not really internalizing what's being said. I would wonder how I'm believing in myself if I'm not internalizing what's coming at me. It could be that you spend the time regurgitating what somebody else says rather than believing in yourself and what you know and what you think and what your perspective is. If you're regurgitating what somebody else says, I would wonder if you're believing in yourself. You're believing in the other person, maybe, not so much in yourself, versus if you're listening to comprehend, that's where you're internalizing it, that's where you're reflecting, and that's where you're getting to know yourself better and believing in yourself. It's a way. It's not the only way to believe in yourself.
Leah Lemm:
What I'm hearing, what I'm comprehending-
Daniel Lemm:
Ooh, very good.
Leah Lemm:
So, we're inundated with information left and right all day long, but how do we make those connections between the information, knowledge, et cetera, that we're getting? In those connections, those overlaps, those combinations of seeing what is out in the world, we then interpret a next level of understanding. So, it's almost that innovation part. You can see somebody... You can learn music as a musician. I learned a lot about music, went to music school, et cetera, but I also at the same time learned engineering and poetry and all of this stuff, and you can take all of those bits, put them together, and make art, make a song. It's almost like creating art, like you're taking in tools and information, combining them, and making something new for yourself, and that is where you find comprehension. That's what I'm hearing and interpreting.
Daniel Lemm:
That's a good way to put it, and in my experience, when I was at a point when I wasn't believing in myself, somebody else did, and they gave me a nudge, and it unlocked all of this for me.
Leah Lemm:
I think that's really important too, is if you're in a position to show somebody and reflect back somebody else's brilliance and your belief in them, and what you see in somebody else that's positive, take that opportunity to do so because it can make a huge difference in somebody's life. We can often feel disconnected. I know in my work it's like, "Is anybody listening? I don't know. I'm not getting feedback," or... I don't know, but every once in a while when somebody's like, "That was great. That was really fun. I enjoyed talking to you," or something like that, "Keep up the great work," that fills me up for like a month, and if it's just a passing comment of, "Yeah, keep it up," it's like, "Holy smokes. I can do this forever now." But having those people in your life that give that feedback, and knowing that feedback means so much, I know I'm looking for those opportunities to tell others, "You do great work. Keep it up. It's awesome," and how much that actually matters.
Daniel Lemm:
That's true across the board to everyone. So, even-
Leah Lemm:
That's universal.
Daniel Lemm:
Yeah. I mean, even if you don't have somebody in your lives who is going to say something to you like that, coming from us, Leah, from us, that's something that it would support and encourage you just as we were supported and encouraged in our careers.
Leah Lemm:
100%. If you are doing something right now that you are excited about, or maybe even not excited about, but that you feel passionately about, and you're not getting feedback or hearing people or have people in your life that's cheering you on, we're cheering you on. I mean, as long as it's legal. Right?
Daniel Lemm:
Well, what is legal is not necessarily right.
Leah Lemm:
Well, okay. You know the difference, but...
Daniel Lemm:
Most of the time, you're right.
Leah Lemm:
But yeah, I want to encourage everybody to really follow your heart because one life. Right?
Daniel Lemm:
That's right.
Leah Lemm:
But also, we do understand that there are so many challenges and hurdles. Got to pay the bills, too. Holy smokes. That's a big deal, too. Yeah.
Daniel Lemm:
Yeah.
Leah Lemm:
Anyway...
Daniel Lemm:
So, that's an example for me about believing in myself and how that's led me down my career path.
Leah Lemm:
But yeah, I think that's a great place to stop for now. I think we have so much more to talk about, but I know we can't sit here all day. We got other stuff to do, but gosh, it's really fun to take a half an hour or so to talk to you about this because in the rush of day-to-day life, we're moving our kid around, working and cooking and cleaning and building a fire and calling the heating in cooling guys because our boiler's not working right, and between all of the domestic life we have together, it's nice to reflect on these bigger ideas.
Daniel Lemm:
Yeah. It's one of those things for when I get out and snowplow, I'm not only thinking about, "Where can I stack this snow?"
Leah Lemm:
Jeez.
Daniel Lemm:
I'm also thinking about things, and that is a place where I'm by myself, and it is really nice to have time to sit down with you and talk about things that have been in my head for a while, and I think that's something that, going back to resolutions and what we can look forward to in '22, we need to make time to have these sorts of conversations, not that they have to be scheduled in necessarily, but that we sit down every once in a while and say, "This is what's on my mind," and then see where it takes us from there.
Leah Lemm:
Yeah. I like it. I like it a lot. Great. Well, let's say goodbye for now. Giga-waabamin.
Daniel Lemm:
Toksha.
Leah Lemm:
And continue on our day.
Daniel Lemm:
We are talking with so many great people, and we want to say that your input matters too. Do you know someone who's working on systems change or centering Indigenous values, or do you have a topic or interview suggestion? If so, then email wisdomcontinuum@gmail.com.
Leah Lemm:
You can find Wisdom Continuum online at wisdomcontinuum.com on social media, on Instagram and Twitter @WisdomContinuum. Thank you to Wisdom Continuum's consulting producer, Multitude, and Miigwech to Manda Lillie for the production help. I'm Leah.
Daniel Lemm:
I'm Daniel. This is Wisdom Continuum.
