Cole Premo
Power of Story
Cole Premo talks with us about how he’s learned from covering Indian Country through reporting, conversation, and relationship-building and applies it to his work in mainstream media.
Cole is Leah's brother and co-hosts the podcast/radio program, "Native Lights: Where Indigenous Voices Shine," with her!
TRANSCRIPT
Leah:
Boozhoo. I'm Leah Lemm, citizen of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe.
Daniel:
Hau Mitakuyapi, I'm Daniel Lemm, citizen of Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate.
Leah:
And this is Wisdom Continuum. We are bringing you conversations from awesome Native folks to celebrate Native wisdom for a healthier, thoughtful, more just future. And today we are going to continue with this idea, with this fact perhaps, about the power of story. And we are actually going to talk to none other than the famous, the infamous, Mr. Cole Premo.
Daniel:
What?
Leah:
Journalist slash citizen of Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe slash my brother and co-host of Native Lights where Indigenous voices shine, another podcast and radio program and he is actually a proper journalist.
Daniel:
Proper.
Leah:
Yes. He works also in mainstream journalism. He can write articles. I try, but I get too poetic. And he does web producing for news. It's pretty cool. Pretty rad. It's what he studied too. He has a cool career, but it's not as, I don't know, looking like a spaghetti path like mine does. Anyway, he's awesome. And he's actually here now, what do you think? Should we let him in?
Daniel:
Leah, I just want to say that he might to you be your brother, but to me he's my bruh. My bruh.
Leah:
He's a bro. Bro, bruh.
Daniel:
Let's bring in my bruh.
Leah:
Bruh. Okay.
Cole:
Hello.
Leah:
Recording in progress.
Cole:
That was, holy sh*t.
Daniel:
You nailed it, Leah. Nailed it.
Cole:
I literally thought that was a repeat or something. That was good. That was a good impersonation.
Leah:
Thank you. That was, I've been practicing, so you're welcome. But so how's it going?
Cole:
It's going well. Recently it's been pretty busy with the federal trial of the three ex-officers in George Floyd's death. I worked that at the trial and it was every day at the courthouse and it was a lot of work. It's good to have that, the verdict over with and all that stuff, back to working from home like I'm used to.
Leah:
Safely from home. Very good.
Cole:
How are you guys doing?
Leah:
Good, thanks. We are surviving and thriving and our dog Koda just got groomed today.
Cole:
Oh, nice.
Leah:
She's looking pretty and fabulous and fresh.
Daniel:
On the flip side, Marvin wasn't feeling too well overnight.
Cole:
That's right.
Daniel:
I didn't get a great night's sleep, but present and generally well.
Cole:
Very good. That's good to hear.
Daniel:
Leah, I heard you did something cool over the weekend in fact.
Leah:
How can you say you heard? You were there.
Daniel:
I heard from some people who are also there.
Leah:
That you were sitting next to.
Daniel:
That you were engaged in a conversation about expanding the conversation of the Northwoods and it fits into the power of story. Tell us more about that.
Leah:
Yeah. I'll tell you a little bit about it. Cole, I'm not sure if you know about it but I gave a presentation at the Forest History Center here in Grand Rapids and they wanted to make sure to bring in more Indigenous voices into their space because when you talk about the history, the forest history, a lot of it tends to be from a settler, colonial, logging lens. And it was pretty amazing to be asked. I really did appreciate it because they are a part of the Minnesota Historical Society. I brought in a presentation called Expanding the Story of the North Woods, where I brought in great voices that weren't mine, that are actually people that I've interviewed and that I think we've interviewed as well. Jonathan Thunder and Vern Northrop and Shirley Nordrum were some of the voices that I brought to share about different perspectives of the North woods. Because what do you think of when you think of the North woods, Cole, just maybe from childhood?
Cole:
Pine trees, there's also the landmarks of Bemidji and other areas where they idolize the whole Paul Bunyan situation, Babe the Blue Ox.
Leah:
Exactly. Unprompted. At the Forest History Center, they have a lot of paraphernalia, a lot of old marketing posters that all involve Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox who, if you look at the legends and the tall tales.
Cole:
Tall tales, that's it.
Leah:
And fake lore, they apparently created the landscape of the Midwest, including the rivers, including the Great Lakes, their footsteps created the 10,000 lakes of Minnesota. And of course they were responsible for cutting down millions of acres of trees. But that was a “good thing.”
Cole:
Yeah. It was very impressive.
Leah:
Just this blind, gluttony for trees and timber. What I did is I presented kind of another side where Paul Bunyan may not be seen in such a great light. Maybe not as a hero but also maybe not neutral and even perhaps like a villain. We talked about this having a reciprocal relationship with the forest where it's not just take, take, take, greed, greed, greed, but also a relationship in treating the forest as a relative.
Cole:
Yeah. You don't see Paul Bunyan planting trees or anything, do you?
Leah:
Wouldn't that be amazing? What if he planted trees in the same swing? That's not the best forestry, land stewardship, but there could be that too. He's not putting his tobacco down or hugging a tree or anything like that. But actually what do you think, Cole? Because I got into a conversation with a couple people, was Babe the Blue Ox a conspirator or a fellow victim?
Daniel:
I'm glad you're being asked this question, Cole.
Leah:
Okay, well Dan, you're in on it too. What do you think? I didn't talk about it with you.
Cole:
That ox knows what he's doing. What it's doing, what it's doing. Sorry Dan, keep going.
Daniel:
There might be some Stockholm Syndrome going on there where the blue ox became a co-conspirator through suspicious means.
Leah:
Well, he was found when he was a baby. And he was kind of raised in the life.
Cole:
I would say a victim though, because you can have a terrible person, but he's on a horseback and you don't really blame the horse for anything. It's just doing what it's being told, unfortunately.
Leah:
That's true. I didn't want to be like, oh, Paul Bunyan bad, equals bad. Never again. We got to boycott or something like that but instead related it to those times as a child, when we slowly realize that our parents are not perfect. These stories that we learn, they're not perfect but they're still a part of the, I don't know, story, the, well it's not actually history but a part of the fabric of what we know and understand of the North Woods. Anyway, so the point being, expanding the story and making sure to include Indigenous voices, though I did make the argument that Indigenous voices should be foundational to the story of the North Woods, but given where I was at the Forest History Center, they're already telling the story. Expanding is kind of more appropriate. We'd like to talk with you a little bit about - you started in mainstream journalism and then…
Cole:
Still part of it.
Leah:
Started, yes, and are still a part of it. But also started covering Indian Country and of course our work with Native Lights podcast. What has that been like, seeing kind of both the mainstream and kind of our community focused coverage?
Cole:
It's been great. Since I'm a web producer, it's very short, to the point, breaking news stories, covering moments as they're happening but with Native Lights, with Minnesota Native News, covering Indian Country, it's been more take your time, reach out to people and build an understanding before just reporting events and stuff like that. It's been very rewarding in the fact that I'm growing my community, while also taking on, I guess you could call it another job too.
Daniel:
Yeah, Cole, as you've been working with Native Lights in covering Indian Country, is there something that really stands out to you? If you were to tell people about Native Lights or about the work covering Indian community, how do you describe that to someone?
Cole:
What I would initially think about when answering this question is just of the feeling of comfort of community when speaking with these people, chatting with these people with Leah, just my day could be going super poorly, very stressful, covering terrible things or it's not all bad of course, but it's just, it's such a good conversation. It's just a good meetup. It's very comforting and I hope that is something that the audience also takes away. It's something that brings joy, that brings community, that is just people chatting about their gifts and how they improve the community around them. And it's been one of the pleasures of my life to have that privilege, to talk to all these people and hear their stories.
Leah:
Yeah. And so we have the podcast but also in covering more of the reporting side of things as well in Indian country. And I heard you say a little bit earlier that relationships, having a relationship and maintaining relationships, I'm adding a couple words to this but is more woven into the job, more woven into the joyous work than it might be otherwise.
Cole:
Yeah. And of course, it also has the connection that I have with the community. And I would say that I've always felt somewhat disconnected from fellow Natives in the community because we grew up in the suburbs, we kind of traveled back and forth to the reservation for powwows, but we weren't necessarily among the culture and the community all the time. I feel getting into this reporting on Minnesota Native News has helped me reconnect with community and build contacts and just build relationships. Anyways.
Leah:
Yeah. I feel like after every interview that we do, I have a new friend.
Cole:
Yeah, exactly. It's great because these are not only new contacts, new friends, new colleagues, but we can both help each other out if there's a story idea they have that they want to send to me, they can do that and we can help each other out in certain ways. And it's good to build that collaboration spirit.
Daniel:
Cole, I can certainly identify with what you said there about not growing up on the reservation and a feeling of being disconnected in some sense, because I too grew up in the suburbs, just the opposite side of the metro area from where you and Leah grew up. And it's one of those things where I travel back to or I travel to see my grandparents from time to time but it's not like I was there day in and day out. I'd get some glimpses of what their life was like but it's different when you're living in the community versus, in a sense, visiting there. And the way that you described the work of Native Lights and the work that you do covering Indian Country, that was, I thought you nailed it from my experience from having listened to Native Lights and sharing the good work that's going on in Native communities and talking to the people who are doing that work. There's power in those stories that you and Leah are sharing as part of that work. Pidameya for doing that.
Leah:
Journalism hasn't always done, mainstream journalism, whether it's public television or cable television or radio, newspapers, et cetera, hasn't always done the best job of covering Indian Country.
Cole:
Indeed.
Leah:
Indeed. And I'm wondering if you could speak to what you see as kind of why it is significant for Native people to help tell Native stories or to do this sharing of Native stories?
Cole:
Yeah. You say that mainstream media has basically failed when it comes to covering Native stories. And I agree, but that's because we need more Natives in mainstream media, mainstream reporting. And I've been hoping that I've helped in just a little bit of a way by being a part and I can say that, Minnesota Native News, Native Lights, has even more improved how I can contribute, how I can lend my voice and perspective as a Native person to this mainstream world when it comes to having, as I was talking about earlier, building more context and understanding the issues more surrounding the Native community has only helped my influencing, possibly coverage, when it comes to Native issues and stuff like that.
Leah:
Yeah. I feel like there's a lot more desire to tell Native stories and it's going to take Native people to help with that effort.
Cole:
Yeah. It's just reiterating what I said earlier, is just more Natives involved and it can only be better.
Leah:
We had Ramona Marozas, a journalist on a couple episodes ago and I asked her, if she could start from scratch, build a new system for journalism, including our, well she's Ojibwe woman and we're Ojibwe, Daniel's Dakota, but we'll see what he has to say. But if there's any of those values that would help inform building a system of storytelling and journalism from scratch. How would you build a journalistic outlet based on Ojibwe values?
Cole:
As we talk about in our podcast, Native Lights, everybody has a story, everybody has a gift and everybody has a way of contributing. Bring as many people in and see what happens. You just need to teach certain skills when it comes to storytelling and tools like editing and things like that.
Leah:
Yeah. It speaks to equity in storytelling because everybody has a story to share, and some people may want to do this work. I think this is what you're getting at, but need the supports to do it. And that's where potentially we can, especially with all this technology, new technology available for personal use, that's where we can really pull away and start calling the shots when it comes to raising our voices.
Cole:
I definitely agree. You can build a story, you can interview people, you can edit it all together on your phone, basically nowadays. And to have that power where so many in the community can now tell their own stories is very valuable.
Leah:
Putting journalism in the hands of the people. There are those little rules and technical things that we got to make sure that we somewhat abide by. We don't want to all have Joe Rogan podcasts. No offense, Joe. Actually, do you ever listen to Joe Rogan?
Cole:
I've actually, I've listened to some that aren't obviously the dumb ones.
Leah:
Flat earthers.
Cole:
Where it's super chemtrails and flat earthers and stuff like that. Some of the stuff with, there's this weightlifter dude called Ronnie Coleman, I believe. He had some interesting stories. Just people have interesting stories, not so when it's trying to spread misinformation or anything.
Leah:
Right. He's actually where I first heard Dr. Osterholm talk, when the pandemic first started was on Joe Rogan. Dr. Osterholm was on it, the infectious disease expert.
Cole:
Is he University of Minnesota?
Leah:
Yeah. He at the University of Minnesota and I listen to his podcast now. But I first heard of him and his work and his expertise on the Joe Rogan podcast. He has good people on, he also has me, boop, marp. Anyway. Cool. Well, thanks for coming on, Cole. I appreciate it.
Cole:
I appreciate it. Usually I'm asking the questions.
Leah:
That's right.
Cole:
Usually.
Daniel:
I know Leah's trying to wrap up here, but I got to ask you one more question, Cole. You talked about storytelling and the power of storytelling and I just want to ask, what is the wisdom of storytelling?
Cole:
The wisdom of storytelling. Wisdom of storytelling, just like I've heard from more and more people from the community on Native Lights, hearing more and more stories builds your awareness of what's happening around you, builds your awareness of what people really find important in their lives and possibly some things that need to be changed. I think the wisdom and storytelling is the awareness that you get of what's happening around you.
Daniel:
Awesome.
Leah:
Oh yeah. And the question can be, what's the wisdom of storytelling for you at this moment? Because I feel like it can be kind of an ever changing, moldable thing.
Cole:
And it's a continuum.
Leah:
It is.
Cole:
It's a continuum of wisdom. Sweet.
Daniel:
One more question, Cole. One more.
Leah:
Is it going to be about football?
Cole:
What do you think of that Russell Wilson trade?
Daniel:
Okay, two more questions. Cole, we like to annually arm wrestle and I was thinking about Paul Bunyan and how many trees he could knock down. What do you think your chances are against a fictional character, such as Paul Bunyan? Think you could take him?
Cole:
And here's what I would say to that, just give me three months. Just give me three months of training and I'll beat anybody. Because right now, it's not going to happen.
Daniel:
You heard it here, folks.
Leah:
Let's see, March, April, May, June. That'll be around your wedding, Cole.
Cole:
There you go.
Leah:
Be ready.
Cole:
They're going to have to re-tailor my suit.
Leah:
For one big bicep.
Cole:
Swole getting. Anyways.
Leah:
Awesome.
Daniel:
I tell you what, Cole, I'll pay for that adjustment.
Cole:
All right. All right.
Leah:
Woah, just cashy. All right. Great. Thanks, Cole. And hi to the family. Hi to the dog. Hi to Mariya.
Cole:
Say hi to Marvin for me.
Leah:
All right. Will do.
Daniel:
Thanks, Cole.
Cole:
Latest.
Leah:
All right. Cole Premo, journalist extraordinaire and musician, of course. We didn't talk about that, but that's all right. Maybe we will talk about that at a later date. What do you think, Daniel?
Daniel:
Ah, Cole is awesome. And starting with the first, I remember the first few episodes of Native Lights and you look at, one of the things about podcasts is that you can see hear how people grow with them and how they, in some ways change. And when he talked about the stories and the wisdom of storytelling and the awareness and how that affects people, with Cole, in some ways I can see how he's grown over the years through the Native Lights podcasts. What'd you think, Leah? That's your bro.
Leah:
Yes. Super proud. It's great to hear Cole bringing what he's learning about covering Indian Country to his full-time work in mainstream media for the people. And then so back to the original topic too, it's absolutely critical to hear from many people. Hearing many people helps us be informed and to gain new perspectives. And also, which in turn helps us walk through the world in a good way, building that awareness, the empathy for others, seeing the nuance and all of that stuff. I see Cole using that wisdom.
Daniel:
We are talking with so many great people and we want to say that your input matters too. Do you know someone who's working on systems change or centering Indigenous values? Or do you have a topic or interview suggestion? If so, then email wisdomcontinuum@gmail.com.
Leah:
Find Wisdom Continuum online at wisdomcontinuum.com and on social media, on Instagram and Twitter @wisdomcontinuum. Thank you to Wisdom Continuum's consulting producer, Multitude and miigwech to Manda Lillie for the production help. I'm Leah.
Daniel:
I'm Daniel. This is Wisdom Continuum.
